Neony Karby
Thai Forest Tradition, clarifies that in the early texts, the anatta teaching is a teaching device to assist the practitioner in reaching the final goal, which lies altogether outside the realm of "self" or "not-self".
Once the mind has let go of phenomena of every sort, the mind appears supremely empty; but the one who admires the emptiness, who is awestruck by the emptiness, that one still survives. The self as reference point which is the essence of all false knowing, remains integrated into the mind’s knowing essence. This self-perspective is the primary delusion. Its presence represents the difference between the subtle emptiness of the radiant mind and the transcendent emptiness of the pure mind, free of all forms of delusion. Self is the real impediment. As soon as it disintegrates and disappears, no more impediments remain. Transcendent emptiness appears. As in the case of a person in an empty room, we can say that the mind is truly empty only when the self leaves for good. This transcendent emptiness is a total and permanent disengagement that requires no further effort to maintain.
Delusion is an intrinsically blind awareness, masquerading as radiance, clarity and happiness. As such, it is the self’s ultimate safe haven. But those treasured qualities are all products of subtle causes and conditions. True emptiness occurs only when every single trace of one’s conditioned reality disappears.
As soon as you turn around and know it for what it is, that false awareness simply disintegrates. Clouding your vision with its splendor, that luminous deception has all along been concealing the mind’s true, natural wonder.
- Ajahn Maha Bua (พระอาจารย์มหาบัว) -
Thai Forest Tradition, clarifies that in the early texts, the anatta teaching is a teaching device to assist the practitioner in reaching the final goal, which lies altogether outside the realm of "self" or "not-self". Once the mind has let go of phenomena of every sort, the mind appears supremely empty; but the one who admires the emptiness, who is awestruck by the emptiness, that one still survives. The self as reference point which is the essence of all false knowing, remains integrated into the mind’s knowing essence. This self-perspective is the primary delusion. Its presence represents the difference between the subtle emptiness of the radiant mind and the transcendent emptiness of the pure mind, free of all forms of delusion. Self is the real impediment. As soon as it disintegrates and disappears, no more impediments remain. Transcendent emptiness appears. As in the case of a person in an empty room, we can say that the mind is truly empty only when the self leaves for good. This transcendent emptiness is a total and permanent disengagement that requires no further effort to maintain. Delusion is an intrinsically blind awareness, masquerading as radiance, clarity and happiness. As such, it is the self’s ultimate safe haven. But those treasured qualities are all products of subtle causes and conditions. True emptiness occurs only when every single trace of one’s conditioned reality disappears. As soon as you turn around and know it for what it is, that false awareness simply disintegrates. Clouding your vision with its splendor, that luminous deception has all along been concealing the mind’s true, natural wonder. - Ajahn Maha Bua (พระอาจารย์มหาบัว) -
Like · · August 15, 2013 at 9:05am
John Ahn, Viorica Doina Neacsu, Anurag Jain and 8 others like this.
Anurag Jain Neony, by far the clearest and the most "no-nonsense" description of emptiness that I have come across. I have read one or two works of the Thai forest tradition and I was struck by the great clarity. The aim of Buddha was never to preach "no-self" as a concept. His aim was to end suffering. Holding on to a concept of "no-self" is also a "self" that remains as a cause of suffering. By the way there are a few paragraphs from Ashtavakra Samhita that use exactly similar language. You won't be able to guess till I tell you that it is an Advaita text-book, so I have ceased to look at teachings as water-tight compartments. They have undeniable intersections.
August 15, 2013 at 9:20am · Like
Kyle Dixon Sounds like he's discussing stable shiné (calm abiding śamatha) vs. genuine anatta/prajñā.
August 15, 2013 at 9:26am · Like · 2
Kyle Dixon Or maybe nondual 'I AM'/one mind vs. anatta/prajñā.
August 15, 2013 at 9:28am · Like · 1
Anurag Jain Kyle, how do you say so?
August 15, 2013 at 9:31am · Like
Kyle Dixon In the first section he discusses the mind that appears supremely empty but is still admired by a reference point. Which he then says is a self-perspective that is the primary delusion. That self-perspective presence is the difference between the subtle emptiness of radiant mind and the transcendent emptiness of pure mind. So he says as soon as that subtle reference point disappears there are no more impediments and transcendent emptiness appears.
August 15, 2013 at 9:36am · Like · 1
Anurag Jain Well transcendent emptiness does not appear. It was already present and there was a delusory awareness that was masquerading as transcendent one. I think this is very similar to rigpa of dzogchen!
August 15, 2013 at 9:38am · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon Appearing means it becomes self-evident (apparent). The fully transcendent emptiness would be dharmakāya.
August 15, 2013 at 9:41am · Like
Anurag Jain "Delusion is an intrinsically blind awareness, masquerading as radiance, clarity and happiness. As such, it is the self’s ultimate safe haven. But those treasured qualities are all products of subtle causes and conditions. True emptiness occurs only when every single trace of one’s conditioned reality disappears." These are the key words and I do not see it different from dharmakaya or rigpa.
August 15, 2013 at 9:42am · Like
Kyle Dixon Yeah it's the same principle. Dharmakāya is the full measure of rigpa.
August 15, 2013 at 9:44am · Like · 1
Anurag Jain Anyways, I learnt this all from you
August 15, 2013 at 9:45am · Like
Neony Karby Yeah. I have read it Anurag.
Ashtavakra Samhita was known, apreciated and quoted by Ramkrishna and his disciple Vivekananda, as by Ramana Maharshi with great respect. Apart from that the work speaks for itself. It presents the traditional teachings of Advaia Vedanta with a clarity and power very rarely matched. I have it in a translation of John Richards.
It is the sense of responsibility which is samsara. The wise who are of the form of emptiness, formless, unchanging and spotless see no such thing. 18.57
Even when doing nothing the fool is agitated by restlessness, while a skilful man remains undisturbed even when doing what there is to do. 18.58
Happy he stands, happy he sits, happy sleeps and happy he comes and goes. Happy he speaks, and happy he eats. Such is the life of a man at peace. 18.59
For me who am always free from deliberations there is neither conventional truth nor absolute truth, no happiness and no suffering. 20.10
For me who am forever pure there is no illusion, no samsara, no attachment or detachment, no living being and no God. 20.11
For me who am forever unmovable and indivisible, established in myself, there is no activity or inactivity, no liberation and no bondage. 20.12
For me who am blessed and without limitation, there is no initiation or scripture, no disciple or teacher, and no goal of human existence. 20.13
There is no being or nonbeing, no unity or dualism. What more is there to say? Nothing arises out of me. 20.14
August 15, 2013 at 9:53am · Edited · Like · 2
Anurag Jain ^ Words whose beauty can rarely be matched
August 15, 2013 at 9:52am · Like · 1
Anurag Jain Also there is a beautiful story of how Swami Vivekananda was very resistant to read this book and Swami Ramakrishna Paramhansa would ask him to read aloud pretending to listen to him !
August 15, 2013 at 9:54am · Like
Anurag Jain Kyle, as usual with the pretext of addressing it to you, I am addressing all people that the teachings of Advaita have been mauled by present teachers and turf wars. If you read the text very carefully, they are also mentioning the emptiness experience. They choose to term it as Self but as you can see texts which Neony has quoted, it goes beyond all definitions. If you are aware of the Advaita teachings, there is something called the causal body which is the body of ignorance, and talked about in exactly the same way as in Dzogchen. When all the "vasanas", delusion are eliminated, this body drops off and emptiness is revealed in full glory. Teachers in the present context have diluted these teachings by declaring that the drop of the causal body is not necessary for attaining liberation. Or they have diluted the standard of liberation.
August 15, 2013 at 10:02am · Edited · Like
Neony Karby .
'Being intrinsically bright and clear, the citta is always ready to make contact with everything of every nature. Although all conditioned phenomena without exception are governed by the three universal laws of anicca, dukkha, and anattã, the citta’s true nature is not subject to these laws. The citta is conditioned by anicca, dukkha, and anattã only because things that are subject to these laws come spinning in to become involved with the citta and so cause it to spin along with them. However, though it spins in unison with conditioned phenomena, the citta never disintegrates or falls apart. It spins following the influence of those forces which have the power to make it spin, but the true power of the citta’s own nature is that it knows and does not die. This deathlessness is a quality that lies beyond disintegration. Being beyond disintegration, it also lies beyond the range of anicca, dukkha, and anattã and the universal laws of nature. …
'Why do we speak of a “Conventional” Citta and an “absolutely pure” citta? Are they actually two different cittas? Not at all. It remains the same citta. When it is controlled by conventional realities, such as kilesas and ãsavas, that is one condition of the citta. But when the faculty of wisdom has scrubbed it clean until this condition has totally disintegrated, the true citta, the true Dhamma, the one that can stand the test, will not disintegrate and disappear along with it. Only the conditions of anicca, dukkha, and anattã, which infiltrate the citta, actually disappear.
'No matter how subtle the kilesas may be, they are still conditioned by anicca, dukkha, and anattã, and therefore, must be conventional phenomena. Once these things have completely disintegrated, the true citta, the one that has transcended conventional reality, becomes fully apparent. This is called the citta’s Absolute Freedom, or the citta’s Absolute Purity. All connections continuing from the citta’s previous condition have been severed forever. Now utterly pure, the citta’s essential knowing nature remains alone on its own….
'Since this refined awareness does not have a point or a center, it is impossible to specifically locate its position. There is only that essential knowing, with absolutely nothing infiltrating it. Although it still exists amid the same khandhas with which it used to intermix, it no longer shares any common characteristics with them. It is a world apart. Only then do we know clearly that the body, the khandhas, and the citta are all distinct and separate realities…
- Ajahn Maha Bua (The Path to Arahantship) –
August 15, 2013 at 10:14am · Edited · Like · 1
John Ahn Anyrag there is no way one can term experience of anatta or emptiness as Self
August 15, 2013 at 10:14am · Like
Anurag Jain Absolutely John !
August 15, 2013 at 10:15am · Like
Anurag Jain Any term, even emptiness cannot name it.
August 15, 2013 at 10:15am · Like
John Ahn Also when the vasanas and karmas are exhausted it is said that you literally drop the body unless you can consciously create karma
August 15, 2013 at 10:16am · Like
Anurag Jain Yes, isn't it the same in Buddhism - Parinirvana?
August 15, 2013 at 10:17am · Like
Anurag Jain Read the texts which Neony has quoted, it is neither self nor not-self. It is beyond both concepts.
August 15, 2013 at 10:17am · Like
Kyle Dixon Anurag, I'm not an adept in the tradition of Vedanta, so I have no experience with which to gauge, compare and/or contrast these two systems properly. All I know is what I've seen from others who expound the view of Brahman, and they appear to be very rooted in their identity as the supreme, eternal Self.
So I'm not sure, the way they describe their realization versus the way someone who has realized emptiness describes their realization has notable differences, when looked at from an outside perspective.
August 15, 2013 at 10:19am · Edited · Like · 2
John Ahn That latter quote by ajahn maha bua is precisely I am realization.
August 15, 2013 at 10:24am · Like
John Ahn You can enter I am realization by seeing all phenomena as three seals just like he says
August 15, 2013 at 10:25am · Like
Neony Karby Entrer s'il vous plaît
August 15, 2013 at 10:27am · Like · 1
John Ahn oui! apres vous!
August 15, 2013 at 10:30am · Like · 1
John Ahn Anurag, I don't know if the Buddha ever mentioned that you drop the body when karma is exhausted and one needs to generate karma to stay alive. I learned that from Sadhguru.
August 15, 2013 at 10:32am · Like
Anurag Jain Kyle, I agree with you. That is what I am trying to address. That is a dilution - an intermediate state of realization, these people talk about.
August 15, 2013 at 10:32am · Like
John Ahn But Anurag, what does it matter to you anyway? You are just here to poke about and play with your curiosities? No?
August 15, 2013 at 10:34am · Like
Anurag Jain John, Dzogchen - Bardos, Rainbow Body...etc. Read the accounts of Buddha's enlightenment. He is offered to relinquish his body and take parinirvana. Generating karma.....that's absolutely stupid !
August 15, 2013 at 10:34am · Like
Anurag Jain John, you are spoiling my fun
August 15, 2013 at 10:35am · Like
Anurag Jain John, On a serious note, it is not exactly what you mentioned. Kyle, I guess knows what I am up to and I opened my secret to Albert too
August 15, 2013 at 10:36am · Edited · Like
John Ahn actually if you are generating karma in order to stay alive to teach that's not stupid but very compassionate.
August 15, 2013 at 10:36am · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon Brahman, as the Self, is defined as 'sat chit ananda: existence, consciousness, bliss', and so it is the epitome of svabhāva [own-being or inherent being]. Svabhāva means Brahman has essential self-nature, and isn't conditioned by anything.
Of course to each their own, and I have no issue with Vedanta. I just personally see notable differences between the views asserted by the two traditions, especially when you read an excerpt like this one, from Nagarjuna which specifically states that svabhāva is impossible:
"Svabhāva is by definition the subject of contradictory ascriptions. If it exists, it must belong to an existent entity, which means that it must be conditioned, dependent on other entities, and possessed of causes. But a svabhāva is by definition unconditioned, not dependent on other entities, and not caused. Thus the existence of a svabhāva is impossible."
August 15, 2013 at 10:37am · Like
Barry Ryder Help me understand what people are here to do? I mean those that call themselves the inner core.
August 15, 2013 at 10:38am · Like
Anurag Jain Kyle, suspend your background knowledge about Vedanta for a brief moment and read the texts from Ashtavakra Samhita which Neony has quoted !
August 15, 2013 at 10:38am · Like
Anurag Jain John, it is not so much a matter of generating Karma but as much as holding to it. Anyways this is plain speculation for us
August 15, 2013 at 10:40am · Like
Anurag Jain Barry, we engage in studying ourselves and refining our views by stating them, fighting over then, agreeing to each other or choosing to disagree.............all in a spirit of compassion By the way I don't know if there really exists an inner core. It is just that some of us have more of an "itch" to talk
August 15, 2013 at 10:42am · Like · 1
John Ahn Barry Ryder we are just a sangha, discussing, sharing, learning, critiquing, evolving, etc. Don't be so suspicious.
August 15, 2013 at 10:43am · Edited · Like · 3
John Ahn Anurag, I thought you are here just to troll around.
August 15, 2013 at 10:44am · Like · 1
Neony Karby I'm not sure Anurag, but it sounds as if you are trying to convince somebody, and I can't help wondering who. Maybe yourself ???
August 15, 2013 at 10:44am · Like · 1
Soh Ashtavakra is definitely talking about "Brahman, as the Self, is defined as 'sat chit ananda: existence, consciousness, bliss', and so it is the epitome of svabhāva [own-being or inherent being]. Svabhāva means Brahman has essential self-nature, and isn't conditioned by anything." Nothing of the quoted parts suggested anything related to experiential insight of anatta/emptiness. It is usual for an Vedantist to say things like "Brahman is the ultimate existence beyond concepts of existence and non-existence". Even if they say Brahman is 'beyond concepts' of such and such, it is still seen or viewed in a substantial manner.
Ashtavakra is a pretty typical Awareness teaching:
1 The Self
O Master, 1
Tell me how to find
Detachment, wisdom, and freedom!
Child, 2
If you wish to be free,
Shun the poison of the senses.
Seek the nectar of truth,
Of love and forgiveness,
Simplicity and happiness.
Earth, fire and water, 3
The wind and the sky -
You are none of these.
If you wish to be free,
Know you are the Self,
The witness of all these,
The heart of awareness.
Set your body aside. 4
Sit in your own awareness.
You will at once be happy,
Forever still,
Forever free.
You have no caste. 5
No duties bind you.
Formless and free,
Beyond the reach of the senses,
The witness of all things.
So be happy!
Right or wrong,
Joy and sorrow, 6
These are of the mind only.
They are not yours.
It is not really you
Who acts or enjoys.
You are everywhere,
Forever free.
Forever and truly free, 7
The single witness of all things.
But if you see yourself as separate,
Then you are bound.
"I do this. I do that." 8
The big black snake of selfishness
Has bitten you!
"I do nothing."
This is the nectar of faith,
So drink and be happy!
Know you are one, 9
Pure awareness.
With the fire of this conviction,
Burn down the forest of ignorance.
Free yourself from sorrow,
And be happy.
Be happy! 10
For you are joy, unbounded joy.
You are awareness itself.
August 15, 2013 at 10:46am · Edited · Like
John Ahn Anyway, sadhguru's take on karma is very interesting. Once a practitioner dissolved karma he cant keep the body. You don't hold onto anything because everything just becomes dissolved so quickly. So everyday some sort of karmic attachment has to be created.
August 15, 2013 at 10:46am · Like · 1
Neony Karby Please read it all Soh. Not just the start. You might be surpriced
August 15, 2013 at 10:48am · Like
John Ahn I've read the whole gita and it's pretty much consistently about Self and svabhava.
August 15, 2013 at 10:49am · Unlike · 1
Kyle Dixon EDIT: Made a mistake!
August 15, 2013 at 10:55am · Edited · Like
Soh Even till the end the Ashtavakra Gita is talking about Awareness as the changeless true Self.
August 15, 2013 at 10:51am · Like
Soh Hi Kyle, are you talking about Ajahn Maha Boowa or are you talking about Ashtavakra Gita (an Advaita text)?
August 15, 2013 at 10:52am · Like
Kyle Dixon Ashtavakra Gita, Anurag asked me to read the excerpts that Neony posted above.
August 15, 2013 at 10:52am · Like
John Ahn Lol yea...a bit confused...Kyle I think those quotes are from Ajahn Maha Bua...
August 15, 2013 at 10:52am · Like
Soh Yes but Kyle, you are quoting from Ajahn Maha Boowa. But actually I agree with you. Ajahn Maha Boowa transcended "I AM" and enter into a substantialist nondual phase
August 15, 2013 at 10:53am · Like
John Ahn It is the sense of responsibility which is samsara. The wise who are of the form of emptiness, formless, unchanging and spotless see no such thing. 18.57
Even when doing nothing the fool is agitated by restlessness, while a skilful man remains undisturbed even when doing what there is to do. 18.58
Happy he stands, happy he sits, happy sleeps and happy he comes and goes. Happy he speaks, and happy he eats. Such is the life of a man at peace. 18.59
For me who am always free from deliberations there is neither conventional truth nor absolute truth, no happiness and no suffering. 20.10
For me who am forever pure there is no illusion, no samsara, no attachment or detachment, no living being and no God. 20.11
For me who am forever unmovable and indivisible, established in myself, there is no activity or inactivity, no liberation and no bondage. 20.12
For me who am blessed and without limitation, there is no initiation or scripture, no disciple or teacher, and no goal of human existence. 20.13
There is no being or nonbeing, no unity or dualism. What more is there to say? Nothing arises out of me. 20.14
August 15, 2013 at 10:53am · Like
Soh There are people in Dhammawheel that pointed out his eternalist view of Citta. But his account is still interesting... how he transcended that ultimate center or I AM
August 15, 2013 at 10:53am · Like
Kyle Dixon Ah ok, yes I made a mistake my apologies!
August 15, 2013 at 10:53am · Like
Neony Karby Then you read it different than I do Soh . Which is no problem, as it is the scholars problem, not a problem for the realisation.
August 15, 2013 at 10:54am · Like
John Ahn yeah the earlier quote by Booa is beyond I Am, is that what you are referring to Soh?
August 15, 2013 at 10:54am · Like
John Ahn I mean the OP.
August 15, 2013 at 10:54am · Like
Anurag Jain Soh, yes there are passages from Ashtavakra Gita which you have quoted and there are sections which Neony has quoted. They occur in the same book. It depends upon which you want to pick up and quote. Please read all my messages in this post and see the logic that I am pointing to. Also some seem to be confusing between Bhagavad Gita and Ashtavakra Gita. They are different texts.
August 15, 2013 at 10:57am · Like
John Ahn But why do you say he is a substantialist?
August 15, 2013 at 10:57am · Like
Kyle Dixon [Here's the same post without attributing it to the Ashtavakra Gita] The quotes are by Ajahn Maha Bua...
I found three sections which stood out:
1. "But when the faculty of wisdom has scrubbed it clean until this condition has totally disintegrated, the true citta, the true Dhamma, the one that can stand the test, will not disintegrate and disappear along with it."
2. "However, though it spins in unison with conditioned phenomena, the citta never disintegrates or falls apart. It spins following the influence of those forces which have the power to make it spin, but the true power of the citta’s own nature is that it knows and does not die. This deathlessness is a quality that lies beyond disintegration. Being beyond disintegration, it also lies beyond the range of anicca, dukkha, and anattã and the universal laws of nature."
3. "Once these things have completely disintegrated, the true citta, the one that has transcended conventional reality, becomes fully apparent. This is called the citta’s Absolute Freedom, or the citta’s Absolute Purity. All connections continuing from the citta’s previous condition have been severed forever. Now utterly pure, the citta’s essential knowing nature remains alone on its own..."
The citta's absolute purity 'remains alone on it's own', this is the definition of svabhāva. It also says the 'true citta' is 'the true Dhamma' which 'will not disintegrate and disappear', so it is suggesting that this true citta is a dharma that is not empty.
August 15, 2013 at 10:58am · Like
Soh Even at the back chapters of Ashtavakra Gita, it is clearly talking about true self as changeless awareness, but instead of being a dualistic witness it is inseparable from the world in a substantialist-nondual manner (one mind):
"
You are pure awareness.
You are the endless sea 11
In whom all the worlds like waves
Naturally rise and fall.
You have nothing to win,
Nothing to lose.
Child, 12
You are pure awareness,
Nothing less.
You and the world are one.
So who are you to think
You can hold on to it,
Or let it go?
"
"He is blessed. 65
He understands the nature of the Self.
His mind is no longer thirsty.
He is the same under all conditions,
Whatever he sees or hears,
Or smells or touches or tastes.
The master is like the sky. 66
He never changes. "
August 15, 2013 at 10:58am · Like
Anurag Jain Soh, Agreed ! I know that too. Read the texts which Neony quoted. Why are you ignoring them. I have a book which makes comments on the passages and the Advaitic commentor actually does not make any comments for the kind of passages which Neony has quoted.
August 15, 2013 at 11:01am · Edited · Like
Soh Hi John Ahn: Ajahn Maha Boowa's book clearly states that when you dropped that ultimate center or ultimate Knower and is without knower-known, you discover the ultimate Citta that is unconditioned, changeless, does not disintegrate and is separate from all skandhas.
This is from his book: "The citta is the mind’s essential knowing nature, the fundamental quality
of knowing that underlies all sentient existence. When associated with
a physical body, it is referred to as “mind” or “heart”. Being corrupted
by the defiling influence of fundamental ignorance (avijjã), its currents
“flow out” to manifest as feelings (vedanã), memory (saññã), thoughts
(sankhãra), and consciousness (viññãõa), thus embroiling the citta in a
web of self-deception. It is deceived about its own true nature. The true
nature of the citta is that it simply “knows”. There is no subject, no object,
no duality; it simply knows. The citta does not arise or pass away; it is never
born and never dies."
August 15, 2013 at 11:01am · Like
Soh Anurag: I have already read what Neony quoted and as I said, it does not indicate any experiential insight into anatta and emptiness
August 15, 2013 at 11:05am · Like
Neony Karby If I get you right Kyle then Dhamma that will not disintegrate and disappear can't be empty??? Does that mean that you think Ajahn Maha Bua considers Dhamma as an inherent substance/essense ???
August 15, 2013 at 11:06am · Like
Anurag Jain Soh, how?!
August 15, 2013 at 11:06am · Like
Kyle Dixon Neony, he may have a slightly substantialist view as Soh suggested, I don't know enough about him to make any definitive claims, only what has been shared on this thread.
August 15, 2013 at 11:07am · Like
Soh Anurag, how has it got to do with anatta and emptiness?
It is the sense of responsibility which is samsara. The wise who are of the form of emptiness, formless, unchanging and spotless see no such thing. 18.57
--> talking about formless Self again
Even when doing nothing the fool is agitated by restlessness, while a skilful man remains undisturbed even when doing what there is to do. 18.58
--> resting in Self there is nothing to do
Happy he stands, happy he sits, happy sleeps and happy he comes and goes. Happy he speaks, and happy he eats. Such is the life of a man at peace. 18.59
---> self-realized person is happy
For me who am always free from deliberations there is neither conventional truth nor absolute truth, no happiness and no suffering. 20.10
--> self-realized person is free from deliberations/concepts/thoughts
For me who am forever pure there is no illusion, no samsara, no attachment or detachment, no living being and no God. 20.11
For me who am forever unmovable and indivisible, established in myself, there is no activity or inactivity, no liberation and no bondage. 20.12
For me who am blessed and without limitation, there is no initiation or scripture, no disciple or teacher, and no goal of human existence. 20.13
There is no being or nonbeing, no unity or dualism. What more is there to say? Nothing arises out of me. 20.14
--> Self/Pure Awareness is the ultimate existence beyond concepts of being, nonbeing, etc. Forever established in mySelf there is no action.
August 15, 2013 at 11:09am · Edited · Like
Anurag Jain Soh, you picked your passage carefully
August 15, 2013 at 11:09am · Like
Soh Anurag, I quoted everything from Neony
August 15, 2013 at 11:09am · Like
Anurag Jain "There is no being or nonbeing, no unity or dualism. What more is there to say? Nothing arises out of me. 20.14" And I have several others which Neony has not quoted
August 15, 2013 at 11:11am · Like
John Ahn Ah ok. Soh So the OP is talking about transitioning from I AM to non-dual presence. One thing I'm not clear on is that there is understanding the impersonal aspect of I AM, in which this presence loses sense of identity and becomes just amness, which is what Ajahn Boowa is talking about, but still seeing phenomena as separate from this awareness. And there is the point like in Thusness stage 4 or seeing clarity in all sense doors and the world as awareness. Are both just labeled one mind?
August 15, 2013 at 11:14am · Edited · Like
Soh Venerable Hui-Feng nicely explains the difference between the view of "atman" and "mindstream" (as taught by Buddha):
In short:
"self" = "atman" / "pudgala" / "purisa" / etc.
--> permanent, blissful, autonomous entity, totally unaffected by any conditioned phenomena
"mind" = "citta" / "manas" / "vijnana" / etc.
--> stream of momentarily arising and ceasing states of consciousness, thus not an entity, each of which is conditioned by sense organ, sense object and preceding mental states
Neither are material.
That's a brief overview, lot's of things to nit pick at, but otherwise it'll require a 1000 page monograph to make everyone happy.
You'll need to study up on "dependent origination" (pratitya-samutpada) to get into any depth to answer your questions.
August 15, 2013 at 11:12am · Like
John Ahn Anurag most of those quotes can apply to Self or awareness because the experience can be beyond the extrapolations of the mind claiming being, non being, unity, or dualism.
August 15, 2013 at 11:12am · Unlike · 1
Soh Yes exactly John Ahn.
http://www.byomakusuma.org/Teachings/VedantaVisAVisShentong.aspx
The Vedàntic Sutras and Sàstra-s are full of statements like:
This âtmà is truly existent beyond existence and non-existence.
This is truly non-dual beyond dual and non-dual.
This âtmà is the Great Thing (mahàvastu), which is permanent beyond permanent and impermanent, etc., etc.
It is empty of all qualities (nirguna), which means empty of foreign qualities, but not empty (of itself), i.e., not empty of being a truly existing permanent entity (sat); not empty of being non-dual coginition (cit), and not empty of bliss (ànanda). Sat-cit-ànanda is the nature of this âtmà (or non-dual cognition).
Byoma Kusuma Buddhadharma Sangha
www.byomakusuma.org
Although he was from around the 8th century, he became popular among the Hindus ...See More
August 15, 2013 at 11:14am · Like · Remove Preview
Neony Karby It's all good Soh , but you clearly read something that I don't.
"There is no being or nonbeing, no unity or dualism. What more is there to say? Nothing arises out of me"....... is about as clear as suññatā can be explained in my book.
August 15, 2013 at 11:16am · Like
Soh Hi John Ahn, impersonality and one mind are distinct phases. Ajahn Maha Boowa has nondual experiences but his view is still dualistic imo
August 15, 2013 at 11:16am · Like
Neony Karby "Ajahn Maha Boowa has nondual experiences but his view is still dualistic imo"......that's about the strangest sentense I've ever heard from you Soh .
August 15, 2013 at 11:19am · Like
Soh Neony, when the passage is taken from the whole chapter as a whole it is clear that it is talking about the true Self being the nondual awareness and abiding in the True Self there is no activity, etc, and naturally when no objects are conceived apart from Self there is no such thing as emanation and so on. It is all in reference to Self. - http://www.osholeela.com/poetry/ashta4.html
Ashtavakra Gita 19-20
www.osholeela.com
song of meditation
August 15, 2013 at 11:20am · Edited · Like · Remove Preview
Soh Why is it strange? View, realization, and experience... something I always delineated clearly: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/.../experience...
Awakening to Reality: Experience, Realization, View, Practice and Fruition
awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
Found this to be a very true and helpful post. Thanks for writing it.Also thanks...See More
August 15, 2013 at 11:21am · Like · Remove Preview
John Ahn In the usage of the term one mind does one necessary see all manifestations as awareness? Or is it still called one mind when manifestations are seen to originate or arise from awareness or delusional states of awareness?
August 15, 2013 at 11:21am · Like
John Ahn seems like one mind is used a little broader than i thought
August 15, 2013 at 11:24am · Like
Soh In One Mind, one sees all manifestations both subsumed under awareness and as the very manifestation of awareness itself. In other words, manifestation are the epiphenomena of awareness but is at the same time also awareness displaying itself in an inseparable manner like ocean and waves. Everything is manifesting not just "in" but "as awareness".
August 15, 2013 at 11:25am · Edited · Like
Neony Karby It may be absolutely clear to you Soh . I don't want to argue about that. You read what you read.
I see a rather profound way of starting , elaborating and ending taking of layer by layer in a sublimely approach expressing a middle-way totally free of extremes.
August 15, 2013 at 11:34am · Edited · Like
John Ahn it seems like in One mind, there is a spectrum of dualism to non-dualism. I guess one mind refers more to the substantial awareness aspect and not necessary about dual/non-dual or even source vs. total centerlessness.
August 15, 2013 at 11:30am · Like
Soh Substantialism and dual/non-dual are two different bonds, perceptual spells. You can overcome subject-object to a certain degree and still hold a substantialist view.
August 15, 2013 at 11:32am · Like
Soh "John Ahn Anurag, I don't know if the Buddha ever mentioned that you drop the body when karma is exhausted and one needs to generate karma to stay alive. I learned that from Sadhguru."
Seems somewhat different understanding from Buddha. Buddha has said that after nirvana - termination of craving, aggresison and delusion, actions stop generating karmic effects. But still the effects of old karmas can play out which is why Buddha still get hurt, etc - which are often related to unwholesome actions from past lives.
"
AN 3.33: Nidana Sutta — Causes {A i 134; Thai 3.34; BJT 3.34} [Thanissaro].
An action (kamma) performed by an arahant bears no kammic fruit. This sutta explains why.
"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.033.than.html
Nidana Sutta: Causes
www.accesstoinsight.org
"Monks, these three are causes for the origination of actions. Which three? Gree...See More
August 15, 2013 at 11:40am · Edited · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
John Ahn So one can hold a substantial nondual experienes, yet the view can be dualistic as in there are phenomena arising our of awareness?
August 15, 2013 at 11:41am · Edited · Like
Soh Yes.. the view can have different levels of refinement. There can also be a desync between view and experience
August 15, 2013 at 11:41am · Edited · Like · 2
Neony Karby Your answer and linking was even more strange Soh . I'm left with a feeling that you've boxed Ajahn Maha Bua as sitting in a place you long passed, and are advertising your own 'E-book' as being a deeper 'realization' .
August 15, 2013 at 11:47am · Edited · Like
Kyle Dixon Neony, since all that obstructs a total release is habitual conditioning, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that there are different degrees of conditioning? Different habitual complexities that may (in some cases) remain latent and unidentified?
August 15, 2013 at 12:03pm · Like
Neony Karby Then let me ask you Kyle . Do you only consider chitta or Dhamma empty if it disintegrate and disappear?
August 15, 2013 at 12:04pm · Like
Kyle Dixon Citta [mind] and dharmas [phenomena] are intrinsically empty, but that fact is of no value unless it is definitively recognized. It's not that the mind or phenomena disintegrate or disappear upon the realization of emptiness, they are simply recognized to be non-arisen.
The assertion that there is a dharma that does not disintegrate or disappear is a red-flag, in my opinion. It means there is some level of perceived inherency (conditioning) which hasn't been resolved.
August 15, 2013 at 12:08pm · Edited · Like · 1
Neony Karby Well Kyle "different degrees of conditioning".....yes we could define that on a scale from severe trauma to very subtle identification. But then the question arises; was even the Buddha free of habitual behaviour ??? Or is it possible to be a Buddha smoke cigars and drive a Hummer??
August 15, 2013 at 12:09pm · Like
Kyle Dixon Smoking cigars and driving a Hummer are not activities which are inherently afflictive, they're only afflictive when related to in a way that is generating delusional karmic patterning etc. A buddha is divested of affliction by definition, otherwise they aren't a buddha.
August 15, 2013 at 12:15pm · Like · 3
Neony Karby I don't think it is an assertion that pure Chitta does not disintegrate or disappear.
And I definitely see no reason for a red flag, as that would immediately hold me back from understanding or reading between the lines what Ajahn Maha Bua is trying to reveal.
August 15, 2013 at 12:17pm · Like
Kyle Dixon Im just going off what it said in the quote, which says that the pure citta does not disintegrate or disappear.
August 15, 2013 at 12:21pm · Like
Kyle Dixon Any conclusion we could come to would be conjecture as it is, I'm not saying that Ajahn Maha Bua is truly advocating for a substantialist view, I really have no idea. We're essentially just deciphering an excerpt from his writing, for all I know it's lacking context and a few paragraphs earlier he made a clarification that puts that quote in a context that isn't evident from the quote itself. So I have no idea. If his writing resonates with you or anyone else that's really all that matters, I'm not out to naysay anything in an absolute sense.
August 15, 2013 at 12:27pm · Like
Kyle Dixon I actually wouldn't have even said anything about his writing if I hadn't referenced the wrong excerpt when Anurag said to read your post on the Ashtavakra Gita... and I ended up writing about Ajahn Maha Bua on accident. I have no qualms with Ajahn Maha Bua I wasn't trying to give that impression, apologize if I did!
August 15, 2013 at 12:34pm · Like
Neony Karby No no, that is not my impression at all Kyle . I just find it interesting to come around what is assumed for emptiness to be a realization. That's all. Recognized to be non-arisen doesn't contradict that the pure citta does not disintegrate or disappear imo. And I chose this OP because it resonates with my realizations / experiences / meditations / insights. Not for it's linguistic or intellectual qualities, but for it's transfiguration.
August 15, 2013 at 2:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
Soh In the realization of anatta, it is seen that there is no changeless and independent consciousness existing in and of itself. That would be an inherent and substantialist view of consciousness/mind. As I wrote in Transparent Being:
Grant Tyler Eric Westfall "Consciousness"... If you actually look for this by any attunement whatsoever it is actually seen that it itself does not even exist. Anything, whether it's 'awareness', 'consciousness', 'Self', 'nothing' that is experienced and then thought to be THE THING!!!...that's not it! Anything that is reified and thought to have a trueness or a really-ness to it is not it. It is all unfindable.
Tuesday at 10:33pm via mobile · Like · 2
Soh Nicely said Grant Tyler. Whether it's 'awareness', 'consciousness', 'Self', 'nothing', all of these are just conventional imputation of the seen, heard, taste, smell, touch, thought... a vivid and self-luminous and everchanging display and process, just like the label or word "weather" is not a thing with a findable existence but the entire '...'... likewise "river" is not a thing with a findable existence but the whole flowing... "wind" is not a thing with a findable existence but the blowing.
Something that 'Thusness' sent me in June 2006:
The weather as Pristine Awareness
Look! The formation of the cloud, the rain, the color of the sky, the thunder, all these entirety that is taking place, what is it? It is Pristine Awareness. Not identify with anything, not bounded within the body, free from defintion and experience what is it. It is the entire field of our pristine awareness taking place with its emptiness nature.
If we fall back to 'Self', we are enclosed within. First we must go beyond symbols and see behind the essence that takes place. Master this art until the factor of enlightenment arises and stablizes, the 'self' subsides and the ground reality without core is understood.
Yesterday at 7:58am · Edited · Like · 8
August 15, 2013 at 3:01pm · Like
Anurag Jain "There is no being or nonbeing, no unity or dualism. What more is there to say? Nothing arises out of me. 20.14"
August 15, 2013 at 3:15pm · Like
Neony Karby What is the message here Soh . I don't see why you post it. Is it an answer or a clarification to a comment here???
August 15, 2013 at 3:15pm · Like
Neony Karby Citta is neither an entity nor a process; this likely accounts for its not being classified as a skandha.Nor is it mentioned as paticcasamuppāda (dependent origination/arising). Attaining a purified citta corresponds to the attaining of liberating insight. This indicates that a liberated state of mind reflects no ignorance or defilements. As these represent bondage, their absence is described in terms of freedom. Citta as such remains pure and the same regardless of the process. So realising anatta doesn't affect Citta in any way as in the end there is neither atta nor anatta (neither self nor not-self).
August 24, 2013 at 6:39am · Edited · Like
Soh Citta is not an entity but a process, and does not exist apart from the aggregates, nor does it exist apart from dependent origination (be it the afflicted twelve links of D.O. or the general D.O. that applies to both tainted and untainted experience). There is no citta apart from specific mental experience, and although mind is primordially pure this is only actualized by the insight of anatta since the sense of self would prevent the direct seeing of what mind actually is in its direct immediacy and purity. Since anatta is a non-affirming negation, which rejects the existence of existents/self but does not posit any positions of its own such as the non-existence of self (which would be an extreme that depends on there being a 'self' entity to begin with), it would be unnecessary to say "there is no anatta", since anatta is not an entity or a position.
August 15, 2013 at 4:58pm · Edited · Like · 3
Soh The reason I posted this is because "mind" or "citta" is just a convention for the various mental experiences like "Weather" - there is no independent, changeless entity called "mind" existing in and of itself. Otherwise, that would be the view of a self
August 15, 2013 at 4:56pm · Like · 2
Anurag Jain Soh, I get your point. I also see it the same way. It is just that there is an "inherent self" that prevents us from seeing emptiness of all phenomena. This inherent self is addressed through different models. The DO is also a model. My view is, whatever be the model, no concept should remain as any essence or substantial remanant. And of course there are various models to do so. That is why he have a variety in the emptiness teachings.
August 15, 2013 at 5:09pm · Edited · Like
Neony Karby Now I see that we have different realizations / insights. Maybe due to different practices. For me Ajahn Maha Bua is spot on.
August 15, 2013 at 11:08pm · Like · 1
Thai Forest Tradition, clarifies that in the early texts, the anatta teaching is a teaching device to assist the practitioner in reaching the final goal, which lies altogether outside the realm of "self" or "not-self".
Once the mind has let go of phenomena of every sort, the mind appears supremely empty; but the one who admires the emptiness, who is awestruck by the emptiness, that one still survives. The self as reference point which is the essence of all false knowing, remains integrated into the mind’s knowing essence. This self-perspective is the primary delusion. Its presence represents the difference between the subtle emptiness of the radiant mind and the transcendent emptiness of the pure mind, free of all forms of delusion. Self is the real impediment. As soon as it disintegrates and disappears, no more impediments remain. Transcendent emptiness appears. As in the case of a person in an empty room, we can say that the mind is truly empty only when the self leaves for good. This transcendent emptiness is a total and permanent disengagement that requires no further effort to maintain.
Delusion is an intrinsically blind awareness, masquerading as radiance, clarity and happiness. As such, it is the self’s ultimate safe haven. But those treasured qualities are all products of subtle causes and conditions. True emptiness occurs only when every single trace of one’s conditioned reality disappears.
As soon as you turn around and know it for what it is, that false awareness simply disintegrates. Clouding your vision with its splendor, that luminous deception has all along been concealing the mind’s true, natural wonder.
- Ajahn Maha Bua (พระอาจารย์มหาบัว) -
Thai Forest Tradition, clarifies that in the early texts, the anatta teaching is a teaching device to assist the practitioner in reaching the final goal, which lies altogether outside the realm of "self" or "not-self". Once the mind has let go of phenomena of every sort, the mind appears supremely empty; but the one who admires the emptiness, who is awestruck by the emptiness, that one still survives. The self as reference point which is the essence of all false knowing, remains integrated into the mind’s knowing essence. This self-perspective is the primary delusion. Its presence represents the difference between the subtle emptiness of the radiant mind and the transcendent emptiness of the pure mind, free of all forms of delusion. Self is the real impediment. As soon as it disintegrates and disappears, no more impediments remain. Transcendent emptiness appears. As in the case of a person in an empty room, we can say that the mind is truly empty only when the self leaves for good. This transcendent emptiness is a total and permanent disengagement that requires no further effort to maintain. Delusion is an intrinsically blind awareness, masquerading as radiance, clarity and happiness. As such, it is the self’s ultimate safe haven. But those treasured qualities are all products of subtle causes and conditions. True emptiness occurs only when every single trace of one’s conditioned reality disappears. As soon as you turn around and know it for what it is, that false awareness simply disintegrates. Clouding your vision with its splendor, that luminous deception has all along been concealing the mind’s true, natural wonder. - Ajahn Maha Bua (พระอาจารย์มหาบัว) -
Like · · August 15, 2013 at 9:05am
John Ahn, Viorica Doina Neacsu, Anurag Jain and 8 others like this.
Anurag Jain Neony, by far the clearest and the most "no-nonsense" description of emptiness that I have come across. I have read one or two works of the Thai forest tradition and I was struck by the great clarity. The aim of Buddha was never to preach "no-self" as a concept. His aim was to end suffering. Holding on to a concept of "no-self" is also a "self" that remains as a cause of suffering. By the way there are a few paragraphs from Ashtavakra Samhita that use exactly similar language. You won't be able to guess till I tell you that it is an Advaita text-book, so I have ceased to look at teachings as water-tight compartments. They have undeniable intersections.
August 15, 2013 at 9:20am · Like
Kyle Dixon Sounds like he's discussing stable shiné (calm abiding śamatha) vs. genuine anatta/prajñā.
August 15, 2013 at 9:26am · Like · 2
Kyle Dixon Or maybe nondual 'I AM'/one mind vs. anatta/prajñā.
August 15, 2013 at 9:28am · Like · 1
Anurag Jain Kyle, how do you say so?
August 15, 2013 at 9:31am · Like
Kyle Dixon In the first section he discusses the mind that appears supremely empty but is still admired by a reference point. Which he then says is a self-perspective that is the primary delusion. That self-perspective presence is the difference between the subtle emptiness of radiant mind and the transcendent emptiness of pure mind. So he says as soon as that subtle reference point disappears there are no more impediments and transcendent emptiness appears.
August 15, 2013 at 9:36am · Like · 1
Anurag Jain Well transcendent emptiness does not appear. It was already present and there was a delusory awareness that was masquerading as transcendent one. I think this is very similar to rigpa of dzogchen!
August 15, 2013 at 9:38am · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon Appearing means it becomes self-evident (apparent). The fully transcendent emptiness would be dharmakāya.
August 15, 2013 at 9:41am · Like
Anurag Jain "Delusion is an intrinsically blind awareness, masquerading as radiance, clarity and happiness. As such, it is the self’s ultimate safe haven. But those treasured qualities are all products of subtle causes and conditions. True emptiness occurs only when every single trace of one’s conditioned reality disappears." These are the key words and I do not see it different from dharmakaya or rigpa.
August 15, 2013 at 9:42am · Like
Kyle Dixon Yeah it's the same principle. Dharmakāya is the full measure of rigpa.
August 15, 2013 at 9:44am · Like · 1
Anurag Jain Anyways, I learnt this all from you
August 15, 2013 at 9:45am · Like
Neony Karby Yeah. I have read it Anurag.
Ashtavakra Samhita was known, apreciated and quoted by Ramkrishna and his disciple Vivekananda, as by Ramana Maharshi with great respect. Apart from that the work speaks for itself. It presents the traditional teachings of Advaia Vedanta with a clarity and power very rarely matched. I have it in a translation of John Richards.
It is the sense of responsibility which is samsara. The wise who are of the form of emptiness, formless, unchanging and spotless see no such thing. 18.57
Even when doing nothing the fool is agitated by restlessness, while a skilful man remains undisturbed even when doing what there is to do. 18.58
Happy he stands, happy he sits, happy sleeps and happy he comes and goes. Happy he speaks, and happy he eats. Such is the life of a man at peace. 18.59
For me who am always free from deliberations there is neither conventional truth nor absolute truth, no happiness and no suffering. 20.10
For me who am forever pure there is no illusion, no samsara, no attachment or detachment, no living being and no God. 20.11
For me who am forever unmovable and indivisible, established in myself, there is no activity or inactivity, no liberation and no bondage. 20.12
For me who am blessed and without limitation, there is no initiation or scripture, no disciple or teacher, and no goal of human existence. 20.13
There is no being or nonbeing, no unity or dualism. What more is there to say? Nothing arises out of me. 20.14
August 15, 2013 at 9:53am · Edited · Like · 2
Anurag Jain ^ Words whose beauty can rarely be matched
August 15, 2013 at 9:52am · Like · 1
Anurag Jain Also there is a beautiful story of how Swami Vivekananda was very resistant to read this book and Swami Ramakrishna Paramhansa would ask him to read aloud pretending to listen to him !
August 15, 2013 at 9:54am · Like
Anurag Jain Kyle, as usual with the pretext of addressing it to you, I am addressing all people that the teachings of Advaita have been mauled by present teachers and turf wars. If you read the text very carefully, they are also mentioning the emptiness experience. They choose to term it as Self but as you can see texts which Neony has quoted, it goes beyond all definitions. If you are aware of the Advaita teachings, there is something called the causal body which is the body of ignorance, and talked about in exactly the same way as in Dzogchen. When all the "vasanas", delusion are eliminated, this body drops off and emptiness is revealed in full glory. Teachers in the present context have diluted these teachings by declaring that the drop of the causal body is not necessary for attaining liberation. Or they have diluted the standard of liberation.
August 15, 2013 at 10:02am · Edited · Like
Neony Karby .
'Being intrinsically bright and clear, the citta is always ready to make contact with everything of every nature. Although all conditioned phenomena without exception are governed by the three universal laws of anicca, dukkha, and anattã, the citta’s true nature is not subject to these laws. The citta is conditioned by anicca, dukkha, and anattã only because things that are subject to these laws come spinning in to become involved with the citta and so cause it to spin along with them. However, though it spins in unison with conditioned phenomena, the citta never disintegrates or falls apart. It spins following the influence of those forces which have the power to make it spin, but the true power of the citta’s own nature is that it knows and does not die. This deathlessness is a quality that lies beyond disintegration. Being beyond disintegration, it also lies beyond the range of anicca, dukkha, and anattã and the universal laws of nature. …
'Why do we speak of a “Conventional” Citta and an “absolutely pure” citta? Are they actually two different cittas? Not at all. It remains the same citta. When it is controlled by conventional realities, such as kilesas and ãsavas, that is one condition of the citta. But when the faculty of wisdom has scrubbed it clean until this condition has totally disintegrated, the true citta, the true Dhamma, the one that can stand the test, will not disintegrate and disappear along with it. Only the conditions of anicca, dukkha, and anattã, which infiltrate the citta, actually disappear.
'No matter how subtle the kilesas may be, they are still conditioned by anicca, dukkha, and anattã, and therefore, must be conventional phenomena. Once these things have completely disintegrated, the true citta, the one that has transcended conventional reality, becomes fully apparent. This is called the citta’s Absolute Freedom, or the citta’s Absolute Purity. All connections continuing from the citta’s previous condition have been severed forever. Now utterly pure, the citta’s essential knowing nature remains alone on its own….
'Since this refined awareness does not have a point or a center, it is impossible to specifically locate its position. There is only that essential knowing, with absolutely nothing infiltrating it. Although it still exists amid the same khandhas with which it used to intermix, it no longer shares any common characteristics with them. It is a world apart. Only then do we know clearly that the body, the khandhas, and the citta are all distinct and separate realities…
- Ajahn Maha Bua (The Path to Arahantship) –
August 15, 2013 at 10:14am · Edited · Like · 1
John Ahn Anyrag there is no way one can term experience of anatta or emptiness as Self
August 15, 2013 at 10:14am · Like
Anurag Jain Absolutely John !
August 15, 2013 at 10:15am · Like
Anurag Jain Any term, even emptiness cannot name it.
August 15, 2013 at 10:15am · Like
John Ahn Also when the vasanas and karmas are exhausted it is said that you literally drop the body unless you can consciously create karma
August 15, 2013 at 10:16am · Like
Anurag Jain Yes, isn't it the same in Buddhism - Parinirvana?
August 15, 2013 at 10:17am · Like
Anurag Jain Read the texts which Neony has quoted, it is neither self nor not-self. It is beyond both concepts.
August 15, 2013 at 10:17am · Like
Kyle Dixon Anurag, I'm not an adept in the tradition of Vedanta, so I have no experience with which to gauge, compare and/or contrast these two systems properly. All I know is what I've seen from others who expound the view of Brahman, and they appear to be very rooted in their identity as the supreme, eternal Self.
So I'm not sure, the way they describe their realization versus the way someone who has realized emptiness describes their realization has notable differences, when looked at from an outside perspective.
August 15, 2013 at 10:19am · Edited · Like · 2
John Ahn That latter quote by ajahn maha bua is precisely I am realization.
August 15, 2013 at 10:24am · Like
John Ahn You can enter I am realization by seeing all phenomena as three seals just like he says
August 15, 2013 at 10:25am · Like
Neony Karby Entrer s'il vous plaît
August 15, 2013 at 10:27am · Like · 1
John Ahn oui! apres vous!
August 15, 2013 at 10:30am · Like · 1
John Ahn Anurag, I don't know if the Buddha ever mentioned that you drop the body when karma is exhausted and one needs to generate karma to stay alive. I learned that from Sadhguru.
August 15, 2013 at 10:32am · Like
Anurag Jain Kyle, I agree with you. That is what I am trying to address. That is a dilution - an intermediate state of realization, these people talk about.
August 15, 2013 at 10:32am · Like
John Ahn But Anurag, what does it matter to you anyway? You are just here to poke about and play with your curiosities? No?
August 15, 2013 at 10:34am · Like
Anurag Jain John, Dzogchen - Bardos, Rainbow Body...etc. Read the accounts of Buddha's enlightenment. He is offered to relinquish his body and take parinirvana. Generating karma.....that's absolutely stupid !
August 15, 2013 at 10:34am · Like
Anurag Jain John, you are spoiling my fun
August 15, 2013 at 10:35am · Like
Anurag Jain John, On a serious note, it is not exactly what you mentioned. Kyle, I guess knows what I am up to and I opened my secret to Albert too
August 15, 2013 at 10:36am · Edited · Like
John Ahn actually if you are generating karma in order to stay alive to teach that's not stupid but very compassionate.
August 15, 2013 at 10:36am · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon Brahman, as the Self, is defined as 'sat chit ananda: existence, consciousness, bliss', and so it is the epitome of svabhāva [own-being or inherent being]. Svabhāva means Brahman has essential self-nature, and isn't conditioned by anything.
Of course to each their own, and I have no issue with Vedanta. I just personally see notable differences between the views asserted by the two traditions, especially when you read an excerpt like this one, from Nagarjuna which specifically states that svabhāva is impossible:
"Svabhāva is by definition the subject of contradictory ascriptions. If it exists, it must belong to an existent entity, which means that it must be conditioned, dependent on other entities, and possessed of causes. But a svabhāva is by definition unconditioned, not dependent on other entities, and not caused. Thus the existence of a svabhāva is impossible."
August 15, 2013 at 10:37am · Like
Barry Ryder Help me understand what people are here to do? I mean those that call themselves the inner core.
August 15, 2013 at 10:38am · Like
Anurag Jain Kyle, suspend your background knowledge about Vedanta for a brief moment and read the texts from Ashtavakra Samhita which Neony has quoted !
August 15, 2013 at 10:38am · Like
Anurag Jain John, it is not so much a matter of generating Karma but as much as holding to it. Anyways this is plain speculation for us
August 15, 2013 at 10:40am · Like
Anurag Jain Barry, we engage in studying ourselves and refining our views by stating them, fighting over then, agreeing to each other or choosing to disagree.............all in a spirit of compassion By the way I don't know if there really exists an inner core. It is just that some of us have more of an "itch" to talk
August 15, 2013 at 10:42am · Like · 1
John Ahn Barry Ryder we are just a sangha, discussing, sharing, learning, critiquing, evolving, etc. Don't be so suspicious.
August 15, 2013 at 10:43am · Edited · Like · 3
John Ahn Anurag, I thought you are here just to troll around.
August 15, 2013 at 10:44am · Like · 1
Neony Karby I'm not sure Anurag, but it sounds as if you are trying to convince somebody, and I can't help wondering who. Maybe yourself ???
August 15, 2013 at 10:44am · Like · 1
Soh Ashtavakra is definitely talking about "Brahman, as the Self, is defined as 'sat chit ananda: existence, consciousness, bliss', and so it is the epitome of svabhāva [own-being or inherent being]. Svabhāva means Brahman has essential self-nature, and isn't conditioned by anything." Nothing of the quoted parts suggested anything related to experiential insight of anatta/emptiness. It is usual for an Vedantist to say things like "Brahman is the ultimate existence beyond concepts of existence and non-existence". Even if they say Brahman is 'beyond concepts' of such and such, it is still seen or viewed in a substantial manner.
Ashtavakra is a pretty typical Awareness teaching:
1 The Self
O Master, 1
Tell me how to find
Detachment, wisdom, and freedom!
Child, 2
If you wish to be free,
Shun the poison of the senses.
Seek the nectar of truth,
Of love and forgiveness,
Simplicity and happiness.
Earth, fire and water, 3
The wind and the sky -
You are none of these.
If you wish to be free,
Know you are the Self,
The witness of all these,
The heart of awareness.
Set your body aside. 4
Sit in your own awareness.
You will at once be happy,
Forever still,
Forever free.
You have no caste. 5
No duties bind you.
Formless and free,
Beyond the reach of the senses,
The witness of all things.
So be happy!
Right or wrong,
Joy and sorrow, 6
These are of the mind only.
They are not yours.
It is not really you
Who acts or enjoys.
You are everywhere,
Forever free.
Forever and truly free, 7
The single witness of all things.
But if you see yourself as separate,
Then you are bound.
"I do this. I do that." 8
The big black snake of selfishness
Has bitten you!
"I do nothing."
This is the nectar of faith,
So drink and be happy!
Know you are one, 9
Pure awareness.
With the fire of this conviction,
Burn down the forest of ignorance.
Free yourself from sorrow,
And be happy.
Be happy! 10
For you are joy, unbounded joy.
You are awareness itself.
August 15, 2013 at 10:46am · Edited · Like
John Ahn Anyway, sadhguru's take on karma is very interesting. Once a practitioner dissolved karma he cant keep the body. You don't hold onto anything because everything just becomes dissolved so quickly. So everyday some sort of karmic attachment has to be created.
August 15, 2013 at 10:46am · Like · 1
Neony Karby Please read it all Soh. Not just the start. You might be surpriced
August 15, 2013 at 10:48am · Like
John Ahn I've read the whole gita and it's pretty much consistently about Self and svabhava.
August 15, 2013 at 10:49am · Unlike · 1
Kyle Dixon EDIT: Made a mistake!
August 15, 2013 at 10:55am · Edited · Like
Soh Even till the end the Ashtavakra Gita is talking about Awareness as the changeless true Self.
August 15, 2013 at 10:51am · Like
Soh Hi Kyle, are you talking about Ajahn Maha Boowa or are you talking about Ashtavakra Gita (an Advaita text)?
August 15, 2013 at 10:52am · Like
Kyle Dixon Ashtavakra Gita, Anurag asked me to read the excerpts that Neony posted above.
August 15, 2013 at 10:52am · Like
John Ahn Lol yea...a bit confused...Kyle I think those quotes are from Ajahn Maha Bua...
August 15, 2013 at 10:52am · Like
Soh Yes but Kyle, you are quoting from Ajahn Maha Boowa. But actually I agree with you. Ajahn Maha Boowa transcended "I AM" and enter into a substantialist nondual phase
August 15, 2013 at 10:53am · Like
John Ahn It is the sense of responsibility which is samsara. The wise who are of the form of emptiness, formless, unchanging and spotless see no such thing. 18.57
Even when doing nothing the fool is agitated by restlessness, while a skilful man remains undisturbed even when doing what there is to do. 18.58
Happy he stands, happy he sits, happy sleeps and happy he comes and goes. Happy he speaks, and happy he eats. Such is the life of a man at peace. 18.59
For me who am always free from deliberations there is neither conventional truth nor absolute truth, no happiness and no suffering. 20.10
For me who am forever pure there is no illusion, no samsara, no attachment or detachment, no living being and no God. 20.11
For me who am forever unmovable and indivisible, established in myself, there is no activity or inactivity, no liberation and no bondage. 20.12
For me who am blessed and without limitation, there is no initiation or scripture, no disciple or teacher, and no goal of human existence. 20.13
There is no being or nonbeing, no unity or dualism. What more is there to say? Nothing arises out of me. 20.14
August 15, 2013 at 10:53am · Like
Soh There are people in Dhammawheel that pointed out his eternalist view of Citta. But his account is still interesting... how he transcended that ultimate center or I AM
August 15, 2013 at 10:53am · Like
Kyle Dixon Ah ok, yes I made a mistake my apologies!
August 15, 2013 at 10:53am · Like
Neony Karby Then you read it different than I do Soh . Which is no problem, as it is the scholars problem, not a problem for the realisation.
August 15, 2013 at 10:54am · Like
John Ahn yeah the earlier quote by Booa is beyond I Am, is that what you are referring to Soh?
August 15, 2013 at 10:54am · Like
John Ahn I mean the OP.
August 15, 2013 at 10:54am · Like
Anurag Jain Soh, yes there are passages from Ashtavakra Gita which you have quoted and there are sections which Neony has quoted. They occur in the same book. It depends upon which you want to pick up and quote. Please read all my messages in this post and see the logic that I am pointing to. Also some seem to be confusing between Bhagavad Gita and Ashtavakra Gita. They are different texts.
August 15, 2013 at 10:57am · Like
John Ahn But why do you say he is a substantialist?
August 15, 2013 at 10:57am · Like
Kyle Dixon [Here's the same post without attributing it to the Ashtavakra Gita] The quotes are by Ajahn Maha Bua...
I found three sections which stood out:
1. "But when the faculty of wisdom has scrubbed it clean until this condition has totally disintegrated, the true citta, the true Dhamma, the one that can stand the test, will not disintegrate and disappear along with it."
2. "However, though it spins in unison with conditioned phenomena, the citta never disintegrates or falls apart. It spins following the influence of those forces which have the power to make it spin, but the true power of the citta’s own nature is that it knows and does not die. This deathlessness is a quality that lies beyond disintegration. Being beyond disintegration, it also lies beyond the range of anicca, dukkha, and anattã and the universal laws of nature."
3. "Once these things have completely disintegrated, the true citta, the one that has transcended conventional reality, becomes fully apparent. This is called the citta’s Absolute Freedom, or the citta’s Absolute Purity. All connections continuing from the citta’s previous condition have been severed forever. Now utterly pure, the citta’s essential knowing nature remains alone on its own..."
The citta's absolute purity 'remains alone on it's own', this is the definition of svabhāva. It also says the 'true citta' is 'the true Dhamma' which 'will not disintegrate and disappear', so it is suggesting that this true citta is a dharma that is not empty.
August 15, 2013 at 10:58am · Like
Soh Even at the back chapters of Ashtavakra Gita, it is clearly talking about true self as changeless awareness, but instead of being a dualistic witness it is inseparable from the world in a substantialist-nondual manner (one mind):
"
You are pure awareness.
You are the endless sea 11
In whom all the worlds like waves
Naturally rise and fall.
You have nothing to win,
Nothing to lose.
Child, 12
You are pure awareness,
Nothing less.
You and the world are one.
So who are you to think
You can hold on to it,
Or let it go?
"
"He is blessed. 65
He understands the nature of the Self.
His mind is no longer thirsty.
He is the same under all conditions,
Whatever he sees or hears,
Or smells or touches or tastes.
The master is like the sky. 66
He never changes. "
August 15, 2013 at 10:58am · Like
Anurag Jain Soh, Agreed ! I know that too. Read the texts which Neony quoted. Why are you ignoring them. I have a book which makes comments on the passages and the Advaitic commentor actually does not make any comments for the kind of passages which Neony has quoted.
August 15, 2013 at 11:01am · Edited · Like
Soh Hi John Ahn: Ajahn Maha Boowa's book clearly states that when you dropped that ultimate center or ultimate Knower and is without knower-known, you discover the ultimate Citta that is unconditioned, changeless, does not disintegrate and is separate from all skandhas.
This is from his book: "The citta is the mind’s essential knowing nature, the fundamental quality
of knowing that underlies all sentient existence. When associated with
a physical body, it is referred to as “mind” or “heart”. Being corrupted
by the defiling influence of fundamental ignorance (avijjã), its currents
“flow out” to manifest as feelings (vedanã), memory (saññã), thoughts
(sankhãra), and consciousness (viññãõa), thus embroiling the citta in a
web of self-deception. It is deceived about its own true nature. The true
nature of the citta is that it simply “knows”. There is no subject, no object,
no duality; it simply knows. The citta does not arise or pass away; it is never
born and never dies."
August 15, 2013 at 11:01am · Like
Soh Anurag: I have already read what Neony quoted and as I said, it does not indicate any experiential insight into anatta and emptiness
August 15, 2013 at 11:05am · Like
Neony Karby If I get you right Kyle then Dhamma that will not disintegrate and disappear can't be empty??? Does that mean that you think Ajahn Maha Bua considers Dhamma as an inherent substance/essense ???
August 15, 2013 at 11:06am · Like
Anurag Jain Soh, how?!
August 15, 2013 at 11:06am · Like
Kyle Dixon Neony, he may have a slightly substantialist view as Soh suggested, I don't know enough about him to make any definitive claims, only what has been shared on this thread.
August 15, 2013 at 11:07am · Like
Soh Anurag, how has it got to do with anatta and emptiness?
It is the sense of responsibility which is samsara. The wise who are of the form of emptiness, formless, unchanging and spotless see no such thing. 18.57
--> talking about formless Self again
Even when doing nothing the fool is agitated by restlessness, while a skilful man remains undisturbed even when doing what there is to do. 18.58
--> resting in Self there is nothing to do
Happy he stands, happy he sits, happy sleeps and happy he comes and goes. Happy he speaks, and happy he eats. Such is the life of a man at peace. 18.59
---> self-realized person is happy
For me who am always free from deliberations there is neither conventional truth nor absolute truth, no happiness and no suffering. 20.10
--> self-realized person is free from deliberations/concepts/thoughts
For me who am forever pure there is no illusion, no samsara, no attachment or detachment, no living being and no God. 20.11
For me who am forever unmovable and indivisible, established in myself, there is no activity or inactivity, no liberation and no bondage. 20.12
For me who am blessed and without limitation, there is no initiation or scripture, no disciple or teacher, and no goal of human existence. 20.13
There is no being or nonbeing, no unity or dualism. What more is there to say? Nothing arises out of me. 20.14
--> Self/Pure Awareness is the ultimate existence beyond concepts of being, nonbeing, etc. Forever established in mySelf there is no action.
August 15, 2013 at 11:09am · Edited · Like
Anurag Jain Soh, you picked your passage carefully
August 15, 2013 at 11:09am · Like
Soh Anurag, I quoted everything from Neony
August 15, 2013 at 11:09am · Like
Anurag Jain "There is no being or nonbeing, no unity or dualism. What more is there to say? Nothing arises out of me. 20.14" And I have several others which Neony has not quoted
August 15, 2013 at 11:11am · Like
John Ahn Ah ok. Soh So the OP is talking about transitioning from I AM to non-dual presence. One thing I'm not clear on is that there is understanding the impersonal aspect of I AM, in which this presence loses sense of identity and becomes just amness, which is what Ajahn Boowa is talking about, but still seeing phenomena as separate from this awareness. And there is the point like in Thusness stage 4 or seeing clarity in all sense doors and the world as awareness. Are both just labeled one mind?
August 15, 2013 at 11:14am · Edited · Like
Soh Venerable Hui-Feng nicely explains the difference between the view of "atman" and "mindstream" (as taught by Buddha):
In short:
"self" = "atman" / "pudgala" / "purisa" / etc.
--> permanent, blissful, autonomous entity, totally unaffected by any conditioned phenomena
"mind" = "citta" / "manas" / "vijnana" / etc.
--> stream of momentarily arising and ceasing states of consciousness, thus not an entity, each of which is conditioned by sense organ, sense object and preceding mental states
Neither are material.
That's a brief overview, lot's of things to nit pick at, but otherwise it'll require a 1000 page monograph to make everyone happy.
You'll need to study up on "dependent origination" (pratitya-samutpada) to get into any depth to answer your questions.
August 15, 2013 at 11:12am · Like
John Ahn Anurag most of those quotes can apply to Self or awareness because the experience can be beyond the extrapolations of the mind claiming being, non being, unity, or dualism.
August 15, 2013 at 11:12am · Unlike · 1
Soh Yes exactly John Ahn.
http://www.byomakusuma.org/Teachings/VedantaVisAVisShentong.aspx
The Vedàntic Sutras and Sàstra-s are full of statements like:
This âtmà is truly existent beyond existence and non-existence.
This is truly non-dual beyond dual and non-dual.
This âtmà is the Great Thing (mahàvastu), which is permanent beyond permanent and impermanent, etc., etc.
It is empty of all qualities (nirguna), which means empty of foreign qualities, but not empty (of itself), i.e., not empty of being a truly existing permanent entity (sat); not empty of being non-dual coginition (cit), and not empty of bliss (ànanda). Sat-cit-ànanda is the nature of this âtmà (or non-dual cognition).
Byoma Kusuma Buddhadharma Sangha
www.byomakusuma.org
Although he was from around the 8th century, he became popular among the Hindus ...See More
August 15, 2013 at 11:14am · Like · Remove Preview
Neony Karby It's all good Soh , but you clearly read something that I don't.
"There is no being or nonbeing, no unity or dualism. What more is there to say? Nothing arises out of me"....... is about as clear as suññatā can be explained in my book.
August 15, 2013 at 11:16am · Like
Soh Hi John Ahn, impersonality and one mind are distinct phases. Ajahn Maha Boowa has nondual experiences but his view is still dualistic imo
August 15, 2013 at 11:16am · Like
Neony Karby "Ajahn Maha Boowa has nondual experiences but his view is still dualistic imo"......that's about the strangest sentense I've ever heard from you Soh .
August 15, 2013 at 11:19am · Like
Soh Neony, when the passage is taken from the whole chapter as a whole it is clear that it is talking about the true Self being the nondual awareness and abiding in the True Self there is no activity, etc, and naturally when no objects are conceived apart from Self there is no such thing as emanation and so on. It is all in reference to Self. - http://www.osholeela.com/poetry/ashta4.html
Ashtavakra Gita 19-20
www.osholeela.com
song of meditation
August 15, 2013 at 11:20am · Edited · Like · Remove Preview
Soh Why is it strange? View, realization, and experience... something I always delineated clearly: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/.../experience...
Awakening to Reality: Experience, Realization, View, Practice and Fruition
awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
Found this to be a very true and helpful post. Thanks for writing it.Also thanks...See More
August 15, 2013 at 11:21am · Like · Remove Preview
John Ahn In the usage of the term one mind does one necessary see all manifestations as awareness? Or is it still called one mind when manifestations are seen to originate or arise from awareness or delusional states of awareness?
August 15, 2013 at 11:21am · Like
John Ahn seems like one mind is used a little broader than i thought
August 15, 2013 at 11:24am · Like
Soh In One Mind, one sees all manifestations both subsumed under awareness and as the very manifestation of awareness itself. In other words, manifestation are the epiphenomena of awareness but is at the same time also awareness displaying itself in an inseparable manner like ocean and waves. Everything is manifesting not just "in" but "as awareness".
August 15, 2013 at 11:25am · Edited · Like
Neony Karby It may be absolutely clear to you Soh . I don't want to argue about that. You read what you read.
I see a rather profound way of starting , elaborating and ending taking of layer by layer in a sublimely approach expressing a middle-way totally free of extremes.
August 15, 2013 at 11:34am · Edited · Like
John Ahn it seems like in One mind, there is a spectrum of dualism to non-dualism. I guess one mind refers more to the substantial awareness aspect and not necessary about dual/non-dual or even source vs. total centerlessness.
August 15, 2013 at 11:30am · Like
Soh Substantialism and dual/non-dual are two different bonds, perceptual spells. You can overcome subject-object to a certain degree and still hold a substantialist view.
August 15, 2013 at 11:32am · Like
Soh "John Ahn Anurag, I don't know if the Buddha ever mentioned that you drop the body when karma is exhausted and one needs to generate karma to stay alive. I learned that from Sadhguru."
Seems somewhat different understanding from Buddha. Buddha has said that after nirvana - termination of craving, aggresison and delusion, actions stop generating karmic effects. But still the effects of old karmas can play out which is why Buddha still get hurt, etc - which are often related to unwholesome actions from past lives.
"
AN 3.33: Nidana Sutta — Causes {A i 134; Thai 3.34; BJT 3.34} [Thanissaro].
An action (kamma) performed by an arahant bears no kammic fruit. This sutta explains why.
"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.033.than.html
Nidana Sutta: Causes
www.accesstoinsight.org
"Monks, these three are causes for the origination of actions. Which three? Gree...See More
August 15, 2013 at 11:40am · Edited · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
John Ahn So one can hold a substantial nondual experienes, yet the view can be dualistic as in there are phenomena arising our of awareness?
August 15, 2013 at 11:41am · Edited · Like
Soh Yes.. the view can have different levels of refinement. There can also be a desync between view and experience
August 15, 2013 at 11:41am · Edited · Like · 2
Neony Karby Your answer and linking was even more strange Soh . I'm left with a feeling that you've boxed Ajahn Maha Bua as sitting in a place you long passed, and are advertising your own 'E-book' as being a deeper 'realization' .
August 15, 2013 at 11:47am · Edited · Like
Kyle Dixon Neony, since all that obstructs a total release is habitual conditioning, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that there are different degrees of conditioning? Different habitual complexities that may (in some cases) remain latent and unidentified?
August 15, 2013 at 12:03pm · Like
Neony Karby Then let me ask you Kyle . Do you only consider chitta or Dhamma empty if it disintegrate and disappear?
August 15, 2013 at 12:04pm · Like
Kyle Dixon Citta [mind] and dharmas [phenomena] are intrinsically empty, but that fact is of no value unless it is definitively recognized. It's not that the mind or phenomena disintegrate or disappear upon the realization of emptiness, they are simply recognized to be non-arisen.
The assertion that there is a dharma that does not disintegrate or disappear is a red-flag, in my opinion. It means there is some level of perceived inherency (conditioning) which hasn't been resolved.
August 15, 2013 at 12:08pm · Edited · Like · 1
Neony Karby Well Kyle "different degrees of conditioning".....yes we could define that on a scale from severe trauma to very subtle identification. But then the question arises; was even the Buddha free of habitual behaviour ??? Or is it possible to be a Buddha smoke cigars and drive a Hummer??
August 15, 2013 at 12:09pm · Like
Kyle Dixon Smoking cigars and driving a Hummer are not activities which are inherently afflictive, they're only afflictive when related to in a way that is generating delusional karmic patterning etc. A buddha is divested of affliction by definition, otherwise they aren't a buddha.
August 15, 2013 at 12:15pm · Like · 3
Neony Karby I don't think it is an assertion that pure Chitta does not disintegrate or disappear.
And I definitely see no reason for a red flag, as that would immediately hold me back from understanding or reading between the lines what Ajahn Maha Bua is trying to reveal.
August 15, 2013 at 12:17pm · Like
Kyle Dixon Im just going off what it said in the quote, which says that the pure citta does not disintegrate or disappear.
August 15, 2013 at 12:21pm · Like
Kyle Dixon Any conclusion we could come to would be conjecture as it is, I'm not saying that Ajahn Maha Bua is truly advocating for a substantialist view, I really have no idea. We're essentially just deciphering an excerpt from his writing, for all I know it's lacking context and a few paragraphs earlier he made a clarification that puts that quote in a context that isn't evident from the quote itself. So I have no idea. If his writing resonates with you or anyone else that's really all that matters, I'm not out to naysay anything in an absolute sense.
August 15, 2013 at 12:27pm · Like
Kyle Dixon I actually wouldn't have even said anything about his writing if I hadn't referenced the wrong excerpt when Anurag said to read your post on the Ashtavakra Gita... and I ended up writing about Ajahn Maha Bua on accident. I have no qualms with Ajahn Maha Bua I wasn't trying to give that impression, apologize if I did!
August 15, 2013 at 12:34pm · Like
Neony Karby No no, that is not my impression at all Kyle . I just find it interesting to come around what is assumed for emptiness to be a realization. That's all. Recognized to be non-arisen doesn't contradict that the pure citta does not disintegrate or disappear imo. And I chose this OP because it resonates with my realizations / experiences / meditations / insights. Not for it's linguistic or intellectual qualities, but for it's transfiguration.
August 15, 2013 at 2:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
Soh In the realization of anatta, it is seen that there is no changeless and independent consciousness existing in and of itself. That would be an inherent and substantialist view of consciousness/mind. As I wrote in Transparent Being:
Grant Tyler Eric Westfall "Consciousness"... If you actually look for this by any attunement whatsoever it is actually seen that it itself does not even exist. Anything, whether it's 'awareness', 'consciousness', 'Self', 'nothing' that is experienced and then thought to be THE THING!!!...that's not it! Anything that is reified and thought to have a trueness or a really-ness to it is not it. It is all unfindable.
Tuesday at 10:33pm via mobile · Like · 2
Soh Nicely said Grant Tyler. Whether it's 'awareness', 'consciousness', 'Self', 'nothing', all of these are just conventional imputation of the seen, heard, taste, smell, touch, thought... a vivid and self-luminous and everchanging display and process, just like the label or word "weather" is not a thing with a findable existence but the entire '...'... likewise "river" is not a thing with a findable existence but the whole flowing... "wind" is not a thing with a findable existence but the blowing.
Something that 'Thusness' sent me in June 2006:
The weather as Pristine Awareness
Look! The formation of the cloud, the rain, the color of the sky, the thunder, all these entirety that is taking place, what is it? It is Pristine Awareness. Not identify with anything, not bounded within the body, free from defintion and experience what is it. It is the entire field of our pristine awareness taking place with its emptiness nature.
If we fall back to 'Self', we are enclosed within. First we must go beyond symbols and see behind the essence that takes place. Master this art until the factor of enlightenment arises and stablizes, the 'self' subsides and the ground reality without core is understood.
Yesterday at 7:58am · Edited · Like · 8
August 15, 2013 at 3:01pm · Like
Anurag Jain "There is no being or nonbeing, no unity or dualism. What more is there to say? Nothing arises out of me. 20.14"
August 15, 2013 at 3:15pm · Like
Neony Karby What is the message here Soh . I don't see why you post it. Is it an answer or a clarification to a comment here???
August 15, 2013 at 3:15pm · Like
Neony Karby Citta is neither an entity nor a process; this likely accounts for its not being classified as a skandha.Nor is it mentioned as paticcasamuppāda (dependent origination/arising). Attaining a purified citta corresponds to the attaining of liberating insight. This indicates that a liberated state of mind reflects no ignorance or defilements. As these represent bondage, their absence is described in terms of freedom. Citta as such remains pure and the same regardless of the process. So realising anatta doesn't affect Citta in any way as in the end there is neither atta nor anatta (neither self nor not-self).
August 24, 2013 at 6:39am · Edited · Like
Soh Citta is not an entity but a process, and does not exist apart from the aggregates, nor does it exist apart from dependent origination (be it the afflicted twelve links of D.O. or the general D.O. that applies to both tainted and untainted experience). There is no citta apart from specific mental experience, and although mind is primordially pure this is only actualized by the insight of anatta since the sense of self would prevent the direct seeing of what mind actually is in its direct immediacy and purity. Since anatta is a non-affirming negation, which rejects the existence of existents/self but does not posit any positions of its own such as the non-existence of self (which would be an extreme that depends on there being a 'self' entity to begin with), it would be unnecessary to say "there is no anatta", since anatta is not an entity or a position.
August 15, 2013 at 4:58pm · Edited · Like · 3
Soh The reason I posted this is because "mind" or "citta" is just a convention for the various mental experiences like "Weather" - there is no independent, changeless entity called "mind" existing in and of itself. Otherwise, that would be the view of a self
August 15, 2013 at 4:56pm · Like · 2
Anurag Jain Soh, I get your point. I also see it the same way. It is just that there is an "inherent self" that prevents us from seeing emptiness of all phenomena. This inherent self is addressed through different models. The DO is also a model. My view is, whatever be the model, no concept should remain as any essence or substantial remanant. And of course there are various models to do so. That is why he have a variety in the emptiness teachings.
August 15, 2013 at 5:09pm · Edited · Like
Neony Karby Now I see that we have different realizations / insights. Maybe due to different practices. For me Ajahn Maha Bua is spot on.
August 15, 2013 at 11:08pm · Like · 1
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