Tuesday, February 4, 2014

Dharma Body, Maha Suchness

Dharma Body

We might feel that our body is moving through the universe... then we might realize that body is not 'our' nor is it 'other', in fact there's no 'body' other than felt sensations, perceptions and actions (movement, etc)... and this sensation-perception-action is not in any way limited... for where does body end and the world begin? Where can we divide an inner into an outer? Not me, not mine of bodily aggregates leads to the dropping of a presupposed 'me/mine' grasping, reference and boundaries not in a dissociative way but rather leading to complete intimacy with the whole field of Dharma. Is body 'me' or 'mine' or ever just part of the world/universe/environment or better yet - just the Dharma* in a whole interconnected movement?

(Note: Dharma as simply a unit of experience dependently originating - not implying any inherently existing material universe [as the universe/dharma body here is seen as marvelous activities/phenomena dependently originating seamlessly without center or boundaries], nor is this dharma body in any sense a subjective body at all [if it is subjectively self-existent then causes and conditions will not be incorporated nor necessary for any given manifestation])

I was suddenly reminded of a term used by Thusness many years ago, "Dharma Body". Here I do not dissociate from my body as 'other'... in fact all bodily sensations and movement are felt in crystal clarity and intimacy... Yet, no more intimate than the trees and the sky and the buildings, which are all the Dharma Body in action... all functioning together as much as two legs are functioning together in an activity called walking.

Yes... when I move this body (actually take the "I" out - body is just this movement without I), it is this whole hands swinging-legs moving-heads turning-scenery appearing and shifting all in one interconnected activity, and this "environment"/scenery is also the movement of body as much as moving legs are considered the movement of body. It is all the Dharma Body in action and complete intimacy.

Update: elaborated on how the Dharma Body is neither an inherently existing object nor a subject to clarify due to noticed tendency to misunderstand what I mean.


Few months ago I wrote something related:

"After maturing the insight of anatta, the natural and immediate experience is total exertion. It is an intuitive experience. In hearing, there is only sound. But it is not just the non-dual experience of sound, it also has this flavor of the entire movement, a total activity, and that becomes natural. One starts to see whole universe involved in the activity. Then one begins to feel net of indra in real time."
Like · · September 4, 2013 at 10:24pm near Kelvin Grove · Edited

    Viorica Doina Neacsu, Stian Gudmundsen Høiland, John Tan and 15 others like this.
    Giorgi Goguadze Whatever you experience is connected to the sense perception, so how come it is not limited? You can only experience things which fall into these perceptions' "range of coverage", is not so?
    September 4, 2013 at 10:59pm · Like
    Soh Whatever you experience are covered within the 12 ayatanas:
    SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
    Translated by John D. Ireland

    "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the All. [69] Listen, attend carefully to it and I will speak.

    "Now what, bhikkhus, is the All? It is just the eye and visible objects, the ear and sounds, the nose and odors, the tongue and tastes, the body and tangible objects, the mind and objects of mind.[70] This, bhikkhus, is called the All.

    "Now whoever should speak thus: 'Setting aside this All I will proclaim another All,' it would be mere talk on his part and on being questioned he would be unable to proceed and in addition, vexation will befall him. For what reason? It would not be within his scope, bhikkhus.


    [69] Sabba.m: the whole, everything that is, the totality of experience.

    [70] There are the twelve sense-bases (aayatana), six internal (subjective), the sense organs; and six external (objective), the corresponding sense objects. These present an analysis of experience complementary to that of the aggregates.


    This however does not mean there is any limitation anywhere in the 12 ayatanas - limitations in the sense of having a fixed reference point, shape/form, inner/outer, center, boundaries and so on.
      - Samyutta Nikaya: An Anthology
    "Now what, bhikkhus, is the All? It is just the eye and visible objects, the ear...See More
    September 5, 2013 at 8:56am · Edited · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
    Robert Dominik Beatiful OP. Thank you
    September 5, 2013 at 7:12am · Like
    Stian Gudmundsen Høiland Mmmm, yummy!

    This Dharma Body, I think it lends itself to the word "subjectivity".

    Unless we get into solipsism, there is obviously some un-logical difference(-similarity) between our particular stream of consciousness/mind/subjectivity and others'.

    Hmmm... What a strange bind pluralistic subjectivity is. What do you think about that, Soh? I mean, about (same-)other streams of subjectivity? One can't experience these other streams of subjectivity, but would one therefor conclude that they don't have some kind of reality or existence?

    I sense that this is a valid, but mistaken distinction. Does this problem (of "several minds") fall away? How is it resolved?
    September 7, 2013 at 10:19am · Edited · Like · 1
    Mason Spransy The problem is conceiving of "streams of subjectivity," as if the relation between two consecutive moments was a stable background subjectivity and not causes and conditions (empty of inherency). It is not the case that there is one mind over here and another mind over there; merely that there are certain causes and conditions behind the arising of this phenomenon, and certain causes and conditions behind the arising of that phenomenon. It works in exactly the same way with one's own "mind-stream" - it is not the case that there is a mind that experienced the past and a mind that will experience the future, merely that there are certain causes and conditions behind the arising of this phenomenon, and certain causes and conditions behind the arising of that phenomenon.
    September 7, 2013 at 11:14am · Like · 3
    Mason Spransy Just phenomena, no minds at all.
    September 7, 2013 at 11:16am · Like
    Stian Gudmundsen Høiland Mmmm, so tasty, Mason. Thanks
    September 7, 2013 at 11:19am · Like
    Soh Sollipsism is "the theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist"

    Dharma Body means there isn't any real self or phenomena or a self interacting with phenomena, illusory appearances happen causally. You do not see the universe made of self or a universe made of objects, you see a dependently originating universe, which is empty.
    September 7, 2013 at 11:30am · Edited · Like · 4
    Barry Ryder even vision is an action -
    thanks for talking about Dharma -
    elusive and forever without a clue.
    September 18, 2013 at 2:27pm · Unlike · 1
    Dannon Flynn Dharma body The whole Universe is my body. I think this is how astrology works
    September 19, 2013 at 2:05am · Unlike · 2
    Robert Dominik Astrology... the The Twenty-second Word of Advice from Longchenpa's Advice from the Heart [I use translation found in Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's book ; posted the root text in different version before] comes to mind:

    "The methods based on interdependce found in countless books about such matters as divination, astrology, medicine
    Are cause for omniscient knowledge;
    Yet becoming attached to various subjects will disrupt one's contemplation.
    Reduce the subjects you study! This is my advice from the heart."
    September 20, 2013 at 9:43am · Edited · Like · 1
    Robert Dominik Planets dancing around the stars, stars dancing as galaxies. No controllers yet such perfect moves in the dance called interdependce
    September 20, 2013 at 9:42am · Like · 1
    Soh 4:16pm

    There must b direct experience and expression of maha suchness otherwise it is imo not a matured realization of anatta and DO.


    U see such expression even in af

    maha in AF?

    Some sort of that experience


    U see he kept emphasizing the infinity, eternity and perpetuity of the universe as the direct experience of the actual"

    oic... that is like maha?

    Yes ... He was trying to express some sort of this experience into this moment of being actual...that infinitude as this immediate actual moment

    The universe experiencing itself as the actual world in the PCE

    What give rise to such experience? What give rise to the experience of dharma body?


    u mentioned last time its impersonality that led to the 'universe experiencing'

    in AF

    In ur Dharmabody

    for me it was like anatta + D.O.


    Very good

    But AF has abt half that flavor from dissolving that sense of self

    So anatta + DO have to give rise to the experience of maha suchness.

    September 23, 2013 at 7:33am · Edited · Like · 2
    Soh That said, AF definitely misinterpreted that experience by attributing that infinitude to a substantially existing, independent, material universe.
    September 23, 2013 at 7:36am · Edited · Like
    Soh Update on original post: elaborated on how the Dharma Body is neither an inherently existing object nor a subject to clarify due to noticed tendency to misunderstand what I mean.
    September 23, 2013 at 7:51am · Edited · Like · 1
    Soh Before I woke up I dreamt that I was in my mother's car and she was driving me around, and she said something like there is only one sound. This struck me as peculiar, but almost instantly I was led to see how all the sense doors are just one door. Suddenly a shift of perception took place and everything seen and felt is just the whole universe, the whole field of experience as one seamlessly integrated form that is great, marvelous and boundless, without any sense of an observer - there is only just that integrated form vividly happening right there, all happening while I know that it is a dream. It became very blissful. After that I woke up.
    September 23, 2013 at 2:13pm · Like · 3

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