Jackson Peterson
I would say that enlightenment has little to do with one's intuitive understanding regarding the "just seen", "just heard" etc. That is really just meant to be a training to get beyond conceptualizing immediate sensory and mental arisings. Enlightenment is the wisdom of knowing what is "knowing". Knowing the full range depths of that "aware-knowing", leads to the unfolding of infinite wisdom and compassion. All the rest is a circus side-show and distraction...
Like · · November 21, 2013 at 7:30am
Chris Kepinski likes this.
Albert Hong Sublime wisdom qualities as trikaya.
November 21, 2013 at 7:35am · Like · 2
Piotr Ludwiński "Just seen" as prescribed and described here is in most cases adressing essence of what you call "knowing". It's not about training but realizing there never was "knower" "knowing" "known" split in reality. In other words; subject is always absent and spiritual "growth" of pracitcioner does not change this. "Knowing" as inherent abiding faculty is also always absent. Knowing "is" known and vice versa without any separate or non-separate knower. It's not training. It's nature of reality at all times.
November 21, 2013 at 7:41am · Like · 2
Din Robinson Hi Jackson, I feel a little different about it, I don't limit myself to the "wisdom of knowing what is "knowing"", although that is a good pointer, I feel it goes beyond that and involves not holding onto anything, which, of course, means no limitations also, completely free and unknown and unknowable
November 21, 2013 at 7:57am · Like · 1
Jackson Peterson I disagree Piotr Ludwiński, the "knowingness" is not a knower or a known. It is the very vividness that permits the "just seen" and the "just heard". We know about the immediacy of the perception, but not what is sentience. Sentience is not "just the seeing" and the "just the heard". Sentience is an infinite depth of omniscience that pervades all phenomena, and phenomena are its luster. To know the Dharmakaya is to know pure Sentience. The universe is simply the Mind of Clear Light expressing Itself.The expression is secondary and impermanent, whereas the Mind of Clear Light is permanent. In profound mystic revelation this can become known directly.
November 21, 2013 at 7:59am · Like · 1
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland Relevant comment from another thread in another group:
This is the way I've come to see it recently:
Perception, as you call it here, can cease, but it is a mistake to regard "what remains" as knowing.
The problem is that knowing is so completely ubiquitous that distinguishing it is necessarily a distortion.
Separating out the "knowing aspect" only happens in self-interest—when there is an intention to claim the knowing as an essence or self.
The whole notion of (this) knowing should be discarded, it is utterly useless and only serves as confusion.
We grasp on to knowing in an attempt to retain it, but we don't realize that, much less than actually needing to hold on to it, we couldn't even be free from it, even if we wanted to be.
This knowing is perfectly empty because it is absolutely ubiquitous and assumes no identity.
It's the most generic, dilluted and therefor conceptually meaningless "thing" there "is".
November 21, 2013 at 8:33am · Edited · Like · 2
Justin Struble our nature can only be realized when all notions of it are discarded, when we have released all grasping, clinging & all forms of identification. it is through the radical, thorough renunciation and relinquishment, that we discover our nature cannot be relinquished, and that there is therefor no need to try cling to it .. how could we, it is empty? .. realizing this is part of realizing the implications of the primordial freedom that is our nature.
November 21, 2013 at 9:59am · Like · 1
Soh In anatta the infinite depth of knowing is realized to be just the perception in its complete vividness. The gapless immediacy of perception is its knowingness without a knower. Knowing does not give rise to perception knowing is just perception
November 21, 2013 at 2:06pm · Like · 4
I would say that enlightenment has little to do with one's intuitive understanding regarding the "just seen", "just heard" etc. That is really just meant to be a training to get beyond conceptualizing immediate sensory and mental arisings. Enlightenment is the wisdom of knowing what is "knowing". Knowing the full range depths of that "aware-knowing", leads to the unfolding of infinite wisdom and compassion. All the rest is a circus side-show and distraction...
Like · · November 21, 2013 at 7:30am
Chris Kepinski likes this.
Albert Hong Sublime wisdom qualities as trikaya.
November 21, 2013 at 7:35am · Like · 2
Piotr Ludwiński "Just seen" as prescribed and described here is in most cases adressing essence of what you call "knowing". It's not about training but realizing there never was "knower" "knowing" "known" split in reality. In other words; subject is always absent and spiritual "growth" of pracitcioner does not change this. "Knowing" as inherent abiding faculty is also always absent. Knowing "is" known and vice versa without any separate or non-separate knower. It's not training. It's nature of reality at all times.
November 21, 2013 at 7:41am · Like · 2
Din Robinson Hi Jackson, I feel a little different about it, I don't limit myself to the "wisdom of knowing what is "knowing"", although that is a good pointer, I feel it goes beyond that and involves not holding onto anything, which, of course, means no limitations also, completely free and unknown and unknowable
November 21, 2013 at 7:57am · Like · 1
Jackson Peterson I disagree Piotr Ludwiński, the "knowingness" is not a knower or a known. It is the very vividness that permits the "just seen" and the "just heard". We know about the immediacy of the perception, but not what is sentience. Sentience is not "just the seeing" and the "just the heard". Sentience is an infinite depth of omniscience that pervades all phenomena, and phenomena are its luster. To know the Dharmakaya is to know pure Sentience. The universe is simply the Mind of Clear Light expressing Itself.The expression is secondary and impermanent, whereas the Mind of Clear Light is permanent. In profound mystic revelation this can become known directly.
November 21, 2013 at 7:59am · Like · 1
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland Relevant comment from another thread in another group:
This is the way I've come to see it recently:
Perception, as you call it here, can cease, but it is a mistake to regard "what remains" as knowing.
The problem is that knowing is so completely ubiquitous that distinguishing it is necessarily a distortion.
Separating out the "knowing aspect" only happens in self-interest—when there is an intention to claim the knowing as an essence or self.
The whole notion of (this) knowing should be discarded, it is utterly useless and only serves as confusion.
We grasp on to knowing in an attempt to retain it, but we don't realize that, much less than actually needing to hold on to it, we couldn't even be free from it, even if we wanted to be.
This knowing is perfectly empty because it is absolutely ubiquitous and assumes no identity.
It's the most generic, dilluted and therefor conceptually meaningless "thing" there "is".
November 21, 2013 at 8:33am · Edited · Like · 2
Justin Struble our nature can only be realized when all notions of it are discarded, when we have released all grasping, clinging & all forms of identification. it is through the radical, thorough renunciation and relinquishment, that we discover our nature cannot be relinquished, and that there is therefor no need to try cling to it .. how could we, it is empty? .. realizing this is part of realizing the implications of the primordial freedom that is our nature.
November 21, 2013 at 9:59am · Like · 1
Soh In anatta the infinite depth of knowing is realized to be just the perception in its complete vividness. The gapless immediacy of perception is its knowingness without a knower. Knowing does not give rise to perception knowing is just perception
November 21, 2013 at 2:06pm · Like · 4
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