Tuesday, February 4, 2014

Four Seals

མྱང་ངན་འདས་པ་ཞི་བའོ། །


All conditioned [phenomena] are impermanent.
All contaminated [phenomena] are suffering.
All phenomena are empty and lack self.
Nirvana is peace [ཞི་བའོ].


(Malcolm/Loppon Namdrol)
Like · · October 18, 2013 at 3:52pm near Brisbane

    Machiel van Dijk, Kyle Dixon, Justin Struble and 7 others like this.
    Neony Karby Yeah, keep it simple. Your best post ever Soh
    October 18, 2013 at 4:23pm · Like
    Szymon Wójcik Piotr Ludwiński lets exercise your tibetan reading skills!
    October 18, 2013 at 5:25pm · Like
    Din Robinson the way i see it, believing in conditioning, in contaminated phenomena, in emptiness, in nirvana as peace, creates the very problem you're trying to solve

    drop it all and enjoy your coffee
    October 18, 2013 at 11:45pm · Edited · Like · 1
    Soh Contaminated phenomena are experiences that are veiled with delusions causing suffering, clinging, emotional afflictions. This is not a matter of belief but an experiential truth. No one can deny suffering as long as there is ignorance.
    October 18, 2013 at 11:50pm · Edited · Like · 1
    Soh When ignorance/conditionings persist, there is no dropping. Dropping is not just a matter of will. Dropping comes from insight and penetration of delusion... the delusion of self and inherent existence
    October 18, 2013 at 11:51pm · Edited · Like · 2
    Din Robinson can you have experiential truth without some kind of interpretation of the experience?
    October 18, 2013 at 11:51pm · Like
    Soh You do not need to interprete experience in order to see suffering as they arise. You just suffer. You are that suffering or better yet there is no you apart from that suffering, just suffering without sufferer. It is your experiential reality at that moment
    October 18, 2013 at 11:52pm · Like · 1
    Soh Sense of self arise... contraction arise... due to conditioning. Conditioning is not something hidden somewhere but fully present as this habitual way of conceiving self/object. When one sees with clarity that there is no seer behind the seen, in seeing always just the seen, and the seen is empty, unlocatable and ungraspable, there is release, and gapless direct experience
    October 18, 2013 at 11:55pm · Edited · Like · 2
    Din Robinson the way i see it, suffering is caused by me believing in what i am saying, writing, thinking, therefore i'll have to admit to not being willing to do that anymore, i now have a choice because that process (of identification with thought) is within the realm of consciousness now and no longer happening at an unconscious level as before

    i guess you could say i woke up to my own thinking
    October 18, 2013 at 11:57pm · Like · 1
    Din Robinson btw, I agree with Neony, an amazingly short op Soh
    October 18, 2013 at 11:58pm · Like
    Piotr Ludwiński Suffering is caused by ignorance. // ' therefore i'll have to admit to not being willing to do that anymore," nope. you are fully identifying with your limited interpretation of cause of suffering and you are very good for using this idea as justification for remaining naive and blind (like "insights are not needed"). Why do you always respond to people with your robotical song of "I AM NOT IDENTIFYING WITH THOUGHTS, I AM NOT, NAAH I WONT IDENTIFY WITH MY THOUGHTS, WHO NEEDS TO GET INSIGHTS?! THERE IS JUST AWARENESS" instead of attempting for one moment to not identify with your conviction in these conclusions? Why not consider that maybe there is deeper unconscious ignorance (and thus possibility of "greater freedom")?
    October 19, 2013 at 12:08am · Like · 1
    Din Robinson the reason why Piotr, is because there's no longer a sense of "problem", that something needs to be found, something needs to be resolved, there's peace now
    October 19, 2013 at 12:20am · Like · 1
    Din Robinson you can't argue with the way you FEEL

    especially if it's mainly peace
    October 19, 2013 at 12:21am · Like
    Piotr Ludwiński again you confirmed by argument; you are attached to your interpretation of experience called "there's peace".
    October 19, 2013 at 12:21am · Like
    Piotr Ludwiński most people do not argue with way how they feel. so they rape, kill etc
    October 19, 2013 at 12:21am · Edited · Like · 1
    Din Robinson but i don't
    October 19, 2013 at 12:22am · Like · 1
    Justin Chapweske "Dropping is not just a matter of will." I will take a slight disagreement with this. If we focus attention on myriad phenomena the self can drop away without us even noticing. "to forget the self is to be enlightened by the ten thousand things"
    October 19, 2013 at 12:24am · Like · 1
    Din Robinson Piotr, do you notice that you argue that there IS a problem, and usually in someone else, not you?
    October 19, 2013 at 12:24am · Like · 1
    Justin Chapweske It is true that there will be no insight in this case, but there will also be no suffering.
    October 19, 2013 at 12:24am · Like · 1
    Piotr Ludwiński ...which would result in mere passing peak experience.
    October 19, 2013 at 12:24am · Like · 1
    Justin Chapweske BTW - My "no insight" comment wasn't directed at Din.
    October 19, 2013 at 12:25am · Like
    Justin Chapweske Guys, I think its cool to disagree about whether or not certain insights are useful, but lets also respect at face value what we each report our subjective experiences to be. If we say we're at peace, believe it. If we say we're not seeking, believe it.
    October 19, 2013 at 12:29am · Like
    Albert Hong Depending on what school of Buddhism one follows, peace is not enough. In the Vajrayana it marks the beginning of the path. In the Mahayana it becomes a distraction and an attachment that is severed through the cultivation of a compassionate heart and then the eventual flowering of Buddhahood, which is different from the attainment of peace.
    October 19, 2013 at 12:33am · Like · 4
    Justin Chapweske Good point Albert. I find I don't really care about peace unless I am confused enough to care about peace.
    October 19, 2013 at 12:37am · Like
    Din Robinson Albert wrote:

    "peace is not enough"

    not true in my case, and I agree with Justin, it's subjective, everyone has their interpretation of truth, of reality, even though we are all IT
    October 19, 2013 at 12:38am · Like
    Justin Chapweske Yes, it is totally a subjective aesthetic. Buddhisms are just institutions that attempt to promote certain aesthetics, but they are all empty.
    October 19, 2013 at 12:39am · Like
    Din Robinson the emptiness of my own comments is quite humbling also
    October 19, 2013 at 12:42am · Edited · Like · 2
    Justin Chapweske ...the emptiness of my conviction...
    October 19, 2013 at 12:42am · Like
    Albert Hong I'm growing to be quite conservative lately.

    Modern spirituality has been so watered down because of Post Modern, Nihilistic undertones.

    Sure we can say its all subjective.

    But then think about why we are saying that.

    Why does every truth have to be equal?

    What is the purpose and intention behind our expressions?

    It is something to really consider.
    October 19, 2013 at 12:43am · Like · 4
    Justin Chapweske That's great too Albert! I'm glad you've chosen an aesthetic as form to manifest!
    October 19, 2013 at 12:44am · Like · 1
    Albert Hong Lol ha its fun isn't it!!
    October 19, 2013 at 12:45am · Like
    Neony Karby What connection
    October 19, 2013 at 12:46am · Like
    Din Robinson the recognition that anything i can say is just an idea, just a point of view, brings out the emptiness in all of it
    October 19, 2013 at 12:47am · Like
    Din Robinson instead of arguing with what someone else has said, i laugh at what i am writing
    October 19, 2013 at 12:48am · Like
    Justin Chapweske What you say is also form - is as real as any other form.
    October 19, 2013 at 12:48am · Like
    Soh Justin: ""Dropping is not just a matter of will." I will take a slight disagreement with this. If we focus attention on myriad phenomena the self can drop away without us even noticing. "to forget the self is to be enlightened by the ten thousand things""

    Focused attention on phenomena can lead to PCE but not sustained falling away of self-sense. That requires insight and a quantum leap in terms of view. Otherwise there cannot be effortless, natural release, as how effortless/natural can it be when one's latent view is still based on dualism and inherency.

    It's like telling someone who is conceiving a rope as a snake to "just forget the snake". Even if he manages to forget it for a moment it is just temporary. He will naturally by latent tendencies and habitual momentum come back to fearing "the snake". The ultimate way to deal with it is to see that there is just rope, always only just rope.

    Likewise the importance of realizing "in seeing always just the seen, no seer", always already in hearing just sound, in the cognized just the cognized... no cognizer, hearer, seer. Then penetrate 2nd fold emptiness

    This is why it is not just a matter of will. Release requires insight. As Buddha always teach, liberation is via insight and tranquility. Both are required. The noble eightfold path is simply the practice of insight and tranquility
    October 19, 2013 at 12:52am · Edited · Like · 6
    Din Robinson indeed and allowing the others the space to express and believe what they do, is also very freeing
    October 19, 2013 at 12:49am · Like
    Justin Chapweske I agree with this Soh.
    October 19, 2013 at 12:53am · Like · 1
    Din Robinson Soh wrote:

    "That requires insight and a quantum leap in terms of view."

    the way i see it, the quantum leap is out of my own thinking as a somebody who is separate and exists in time and space, when those thoughts are seen for what they are, when that point of view is seen for what it is, then there is peace and stillness is simply being present and aware
    October 19, 2013 at 12:56am · Like · 1
    Albert Hong Din Robinson

    It is so interesting that the 7 stages were written to you by Thusness.

    What stage do you think your expression finds itself?
    October 19, 2013 at 12:58am · Like · 1
    Soh That is good Din, it is important to see through the faces and guises of self/Self in all its aspects. Whether the sense of personal self, or the sense of a dualistic Witness, or the sense of a metaphysical Self (even if non-dual)... all are to be seen through.

    Even the Self that is conceived to be 'Awareness' (even one that subsumes everything else) is seen to be an illusion... is 'Awareness' ever a Self standing changelessly behind perception, or containing perception, or is there only just the vivid lucidly experienced scenery, sounds, sensations, touch, alive and happening where they are without a vantage point from which they are viewed from/some kind of viewer? That being the only awareness there is (the self-luminous perception itself)? Is there ever an observer apart from the observed? Is there a need to abide in some kind of conceived 'Awareness'?

    Or is it as Joel Agee puts it:


    "I don't find an ever-present awareness that observes anything, or that experiences thoughts, etc. Seeing, hearing, smelling, etc. happen spontaneously on their own. Attention is an afterthought. A moment ago some leaves in a flower box outside my window were quivering in a breeze. The immediacy of that movement -- or of any occurrence in the micro-instant of its arising -- is all the awareness and presence there is."
    Awakening to Reality: Joel Agee: Appearances are Self-Illuminating
    October 19, 2013 at 1:02am · Edited · Like · 4 · Remove Preview
    Din Robinson well said, any analysis or need to understand or orient oneself or know oneself, still comes from the idea of a someone who can or needs to this, once all that drops away, there is only "what is", without any interpretation or need to understand or reduce it to concepts
    October 19, 2013 at 2:09am · Like · 1
    Neony Karby there is no "what is" without concepts/thought
    October 19, 2013 at 2:12am · Like
    Din Robinson Albert, I actually don't remember Thusness's 7 stages and I would imagine that they apply more to his own understanding and experience, it does not necessarily translate to everyone else's experience and I feel no need to get involved with more structures of thought
    October 19, 2013 at 2:12am · Like · 1
    Din Robinson my ex has been a great teacher for me, she always told me, my truth is mine alone, and she was never interested in it, but then again, she's still totally lost in her conceptual reality
    October 19, 2013 at 2:15am · Like · 1
    Albert Hong Din Robinson

    That is a shame as it is probably the clearest articulation of the stages on the path. I don't think you have a choice between getting involved with thoughts or not. They are going to appear whether we like it or not haha.
    October 19, 2013 at 3:25am · Like · 1
    John Ahn I agree with Din that what Thusness wrote is an articulation of his own path, not "the" path. IMO there are different limits and ceilings to people's spiritual progress. Someone may want to become a Buddha, someone might not. Some might not care. Do you teach the dharma to a dog? No. To a dog, the dharma is irrelevant. Do you teach Daoist alchemy to a Zen Buddhist? No. The Zen Buddhist wants kensho, satori. Daoist alchemist wants to make immortal fetus. So someone may seek peace as a main objective, others might seek adventure/exploration, others want knowledge. Basically, whatever suits their condition of development as a living being. I'd really hate it if one day the entire world became Buddhist. It'd be terribly boring. There's no "shame" in being one type of person or the other, there's no "shame" in propagating Self over anatta. To me that's just politics, all the stuff about "inferior" enlightenment. Anyway, everyone is going their own path, to share as openly as possible and at times challenge one another is what's fun.
    October 19, 2013 at 6:45am · Like · 1
    Albert Hong I suppose its a balance. As they say there are 84k dharma gates. But we are on a dharmaconnection forum and generally the things we talk about revolve around the seven stages. Also even if we speak from personal experience the point is to converse and dialogue with others. We can narcistically just speak to ourselves as well.

    And we had that occur many times. Even i do that everyday.

    Idk its something to consider. Whomever reads this. Maybe read the blog or sohs ebook. Maybe get the lingo and the maps. If ones personal experience is authentic then one can intuit what is said, etc.

    Its something to consider. Or not!
    October 19, 2013 at 7:11am · Like
    John Ahn I don't think there are many people who have chosen to just to follow thusness' guidelines and Soh's progression. That's my impression at least. Most people here are mix and matching their own backgrounds and other practices along with stuff from Awakening to Reality. The 7 stages for me are just what Thusness has gone through in terms of his study of the Buddhadharma. It just happens that they are incredibly helpful and easy to be related to because they are based on common language. There's no "magic" or qi or kundalini that needs to be directly experienced for there to be basic communication. But I find it off putting whenever the 7 stages are used to measure other systems and practices. It's totally unnecessary and comes from a perspective that somehow one has an overarching understanding of all spirituality. If one does that's great. Then I have no problem with someone claiming how one system is and how another is. But as I see it no one on this board has that much experience, maybe a lot of knowledge. But scholarly understanding to me is just a veil.
    October 19, 2013 at 8:18am · Edited · Like · 1
    Justin Chapweske The Thusness 7 stages allowed me to get unstuck from some cul de sacs very efficiently. I am very grateful for that map.
    October 19, 2013 at 8:58am · Like
    Dannon Flynn I often consult many maps, Hindu as well as Buddhist, and I agree with them all and disagree with them all. They all are holograms of truth. They can corroborate my experiences and guide me and show me the right direction. But when it all comes down to it, my map is the bull's eye in the target.
    October 19, 2013 at 5:02pm · Like
    Din Robinson there is this myth, that there is a person who needs to find something called truth, that they need to understand something.... but all there is, is truth, there's nothing but life itself, buddha mind itself, god him/herself, it's all what it is, there's no need to find it, just the need to drop all looking, drop all sense of doing, drop all sense of separation.... and just be...
    October 19, 2013 at 11:35pm · Like
    John Ahn Yes Din, that is a myth, but that isn't the whole story. To me spirituality isn't necessarily about finding "Truth." That is such a simplified idea that if one understands one thing then that's it! tada! you have accomplished everything. This is due to folklore of enlightenment that maybe if we think really hard about reality, we will just about understand all there is to it. And if someone wants to be IN truth, like you said, there is nothing but life itself, so that's a silly notion.
    October 20, 2013 at 7:20am · Edited · Like
    John Ahn One major point for me is to explore the limits of human experience. For instance, if we look at it from a Buddhist perspective, its about exploring to what extent human suffering can be ceased by understanding the effects of mental fabrication. If we look at it from modern science's perspective it's about discovering the perceived world via means of measurement. Or in some traditions it's about seeking the ultimate potential of the human body and its energies. If exploration is dropped (and I believe it can't) I think it's neglecting one of the more fundamental aspects of being a living being and you will become more or less a mechanical "thing." Often people drop what you may call "seeking" in favor of security due to fear and pain of venturing into new ground. But its really due to the pains of entanglement that people opt for stifled ways of life. If we can be totally involved in the process of seeking and exploring without becoming entangled in results, expectations, possessiveness, etc. I think you will see that to "be" is to seek, explore, create.
    October 20, 2013 at 7:19am · Edited · Like · 1
    Dannon Flynn " If exploration is dropped (and I believe it can't) I think it's neglecting one of the more fundamental aspects of being a living being and you will become more or less a mechanical "thing.""

    There is exploration which is seeking something to complete one's self, and there is exploration for fun and curiosity and wisdom is good. Exploration is growth. Don't stop exploring!
    October 20, 2013 at 9:50am · Like · 1
    John Ahn Yeah, if you are venturing out to fulfill a hole, it will be a very painful journey, and the idea of a journey itself will get blamed instead, so maybe one may conclude it's better to "let go" and live in peace.
    October 20, 2013 at 9:57am · Like · 1
    Albert Hong Burning desire with no aim.
    October 20, 2013 at 10:22am · Like · 1
    Justin Chapweske John Ahn - so I define seeking as a certain kind of ignorance that assumes that this exact moment can somehow be different than it is. It sounds like your definition of "seeking" is slightly different. What do you think?
    October 20, 2013 at 10:32am · Like
    John Ahn Yeah, I think what you are talking about is how the term is used in insight meditation communities: the idea that the way we are experiencing is faulty and needs to be adjusted so that wala! Enlightenment! And I'd say when we are speaking about realization of anatta, emptiness and such, this is how it actually is. Still the tremendous benefit about no-self and emptiness is the slowly disappearing confines of fear, identity, and absoluteness. When it matures, as I am learning slowly these days, there is less and less possibility of becoming entangled with experience. There's more confidence in your capacity to take the upheavals of life, and crippling fears can become excitement. So here, when I mention "seeking" it is not seeking for some "thing," it's just the way life is, to want, to desire, to feel pain, to feel pleasure, to feel aversion. To deny these aspect of yourself because you are afraid of attachment speaks to the immaturity of your spiritual insight. But now the movement is much more exciting because you are no longer entangled or will become entangled in any of it. Just traceless exuberance to experience, explore, and play. And I am really starting to believe that this is a fundamental part of being a living being and one of its higher characteristics: to explore.
    October 20, 2013 at 11:51am · Edited · Like · 1
    Justin Chapweske Excellent. What you say resonates here 100%. There is movement but not the full on seeking I used to experience.
    October 20, 2013 at 11:59am · Like · 2
    John Ahn I though this was pretty relevant .
    October 26, 2013 at 5:14am · Like
    John Ahn http://www.wired.com/.../10/free-thinkers/all/&src=longreads
    How a Radical New Teaching Method Could Unleash a Generation of Geniuses | Wired Business |...
    Students in Matamoros, Mexico weren't getting much out of school -- until a radical new teaching method unlocked their potential.
    October 26, 2013 at 5:14am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview

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