Soh
May 10 · Brisbane · Edited
I had a shift today in which my level of integration into mundane activities has just surpassed anything I've experienced before yet I fully understand it is just a beginning, after which I wrote to Thusness:
"im learning to engage in daily life in complete dispassion and engagement without self.. just one activity at a time. i think piotr said being busy is no excuse for not practicing.. and in between one's activities one should practice etc... i fully agree and i think not only that, the main practice is really in the busy-ness itself, in the full engagement of studying exam, doing work, the messiness of one's daily life if we cannot integrate that then what we only have is brief periods of peace and peak experience... daily life becomes segmented every moment detecting and dropping fetters in activities is the practice.. dropping in meditation is the easy part. opening unreservedly in the midst of all activities... from day to sleep..."
Thusness replied, "Dharma is always in all these mundane activities...it is not just a daily matter...talk when u r back. To hv ur insights and realizations fully integrated and actualized in these activities is what ur Teacher Chen and lzls been trying to advice u also. To spend and donate using ur parents money is not ur generosity ...as I told....lol
Love and let go...earn and give
Leaving no trace is noble and wisdom. Not to over claim when u r still young..."
I said: "hahahaha now i see how silly when i told u recently that my daily life lack of time is a hindrance to dharma practice (a statement I made last month that would seem sad and tragic only yesterday became totally silly after today:
"I wonder how can one really practice if ones schedule is just busy from morning to night.. think its harmful for spiritual practice")
Thusness: "Yes it is exactly where ur dharma practice should be...lol
My neck pain is also dharma practice.
Donation is dharma practice so is business and entertainment ... Lol
Otherwise u will not understand the anatta in the 6 paramitas...it is great actualization of anatta."
Piotr Ludwinski
11:43pm
Piotr Ludwinski
its hard isn it
but how we can expect not being overwhelmed by death and bardo if we are overwhelmed by just living having food, having water and clothes
Soh
11:49pm
Soh
its hard until it gets easier... like learning to ride bycicle lol
bicycle*
btw i love what u quoted from chnn.. if u dun have time for practice then u have time for distraction. lol
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Viorica Doina Neacsu, Goose Saver, Nick Ong and 16 others like this.
Alan Koek haha yes... sometimes life is so busy with work, studies, etc and we neglected what we should do or ought to do... We give ourselves many excuses...
Sometimes mindfulness also lapses... i often feel it's helpful to reflect what happened, try to constantly recall, remind, to get rid of habitual tendencies.
May 10 at 2:28am · Like · 1
Alan Koek try looking at old people as deva messagers
look at pleasant looking people
tasting nice or lousy food - craving and aversion of taste lol...See More
May 10 at 2:29am · Edited · Like · 1
Daniel Noreen I'm curious as to who "Thusness" is.
May 10 at 2:34am · Like · 1
Soh Yes its so important.. so many excuses... the excuses being part of habitual tendencies, part of delusion, part of our fantasies (about what practice should be and about a particular state of experience etc).
Daily life is really where the practice truly lies. Where we let habitual tendencies liberate.
Another point I should note is that as Thusness said just now, "Yes but writing abt activities not at the right timing is not a good advice imo
Have the insights then actualize them."
The insights, seeing one's true nature, realizing anatta and emptiness, these are vital for integration otherwise there is no basis for our liberation much less liberation in activity.
Nonetheless after that insight, a leap has to be made... I was suddenly reminded of the zen ox herding picture. The description in the 9th oxherding picture is similar to anatta (at least in the commentary I read), but for a long time I couldn't understand why does the 10th picture need a separate picture.
Now I understood.. it opens up a whole new phase of practice for me. This is why I told Thusness that this deserves a posting.. haha. Its really about entering the market place and dirtying your hands!
p.s. the 10th oxherding picture is not buddhahood, its only really the beginning... it has infinite depths and I'm only beginning
Similar examples are given in Five Ranks of Tozan
May 10 at 2:38am · Edited · Like · 12
Piotr Ludwinski You should look at Trungpa's interpretation of ox-herding. It differs completely from yours and Thusness and will be more relevant for what you wrote about. I risk such statement.
May 10 at 2:50am · Unlike · 1
Piotr Ludwinski Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. The Collected Works Volume 1 (chapter "Ox Herding" page 415)
May 10 at 3:06am · Edited · Like · 1
Szymon Wójcik I heard some nice words to this topic just a minute ago from Reggie Ray - "the biggest form of laziness is being busy".
Great post, I'm happy about your discovery. I feel like I just needed to read this. Thanks.
May 10 at 3:46am · Unlike · 6
Joel Agee Here is Chögyam Trungpa's commentary on the Ox-Herding pictures: http://www.shambhala.org/dharma/ctr/oxherding/index.html
Oxherding
www.shambhala.org
Shambhala and Buddhist meditation practice and arts.
May 10 at 4:42am · Edited · Unlike · 8 · Remove Preview
Joel Agee Piotr, why is Trungpa's interpretation of the Oxherding pictures more relevant to the topic of the OP than Soh's take on them?
May 10 at 6:31am · Like · 1
David Vardy Minutes become hours become months and eventually there isn't much to compare with any longer and what was once a dramatic shift as clear as night and day becomes a shift which is almost unnoticeable.
May 10 at 7:26am · Unlike · 2
Soh I kind of like the original poems and commentaries by Zen Master Kubota too:
9th oxherding: http://www.sanbo-zen.org/cow09_e.html
10th oxherding: http://www.sanbo-zen.org/cow10_e.html
Ten Ox-herding Pictures Stage 9
www.sanbo-zen.org
May 10 at 8:05am · Like · 5 · Remove Preview
David Vardy At a point the notion of being reminded of what's happening becomes what's funny. The inclination of an entity which needs to be reminded is so habitual, for lack of a better word, that when that particular manner of speaking is in abeyance for long periods of time, it's return is almost startling. It can't help but bring a chuckle and the accompanying thought "there I am again".....lol
May 10 at 8:20am · Unlike · 2
Soh Yeah... in waking life it is so. For a number of years now there has been no need to remind of anatta... or self... there is no more the sense of self nor a need to remind 'only hearing no hearer' etc etc. That seems extra and only useful when trying to point out certain things for those who hasn't 'seen' it.
Yet the depths of actualization in various aspects of life and sleep seems to be improving and ongoing... subtle habitual patterns to contract and lead to afflictions can still manifest in certain areas of life. Then actualization occurs to liberate these patterns. Even in sleep, and sleep paralysis, the complete dissolution of any sense of self leads to a very different taste and a liberating experience where all sense of self, fear, contraction dissolves into complete bliss and vivid transparency what would otherwise be a most terrifying experience in life (with apparent monsters etc). I wrote about my sleep experiences (had it happen in dreamless sleep, dreams, and sleep paralysis) before but I digress for now.
The funny thing is that the sense of self, negative emotions and suffering tremendously reduced and certain species of mental afflictions simply don't appear much (as far as I discern) anymore after 'anatta' and it seems to be so quite stably in waking state... but tendencies can still arise in sleep. I haven't experienced certain emotions like anger/rage/etc for a long time (though I used to be angry quite often before)... and even things like sorrow.. that I even forgot how it feels like. Yet in one of my dreams I recalled of a relationship with a girl a long time ago.. then when I woke up I remarked that I was suddenly reminded of what sorrow felt like... lol
Thusness told me,
"Lol
Therefore u must know the surface and subtle structure...otherwise y the 3 states
Similarly no noticeable duality can b detected in waking but not in the 3 states"
May 10 at 9:01am · Edited · Like · 2
David Vardy Yes. I went through years processing all this through sleep, maintaining wakefulness through falling asleep, leading into lucid dreaming. It became more real than the normal waking state for quite some time, probably because it was much more eventful and freeing. Being freed of the body notion for hours on end was addictive to say the least. Learning to relax through sleep paralysis seemed an achievement of sorts, a way of relaxing that translated well into the waking state. I always had a great fear of drowning having been close to it as a child. Through lucid dreaming I even learned to swim underwater, breath underwater. Now that fear of drowning is all but gone. Ironically, drowning and its associated asthma was the fiction that kept the idea of being this person very real. It showed up all the time, including being disturbed by the smell of chlorine in pools, any chance there was to be disturbed....lol
May 10 at 9:07am · Unlike · 6
Soh Nice.. do you have experiences of dreams and dreamless sleep dawning as Clear Light? It's not necessarily the same with lucid dreams however. As I wrote in http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/.../lucid...
Soh:
I've had many episodes in the past where I was in conscious lucid dreams, and then the lucid dreams disappeared into pure non-dual Presence, pure knowingness, and it was profoundly blissful. Very very blissful. Samadhi like.
Last night, it was like that again, except the dreams never disappeared - I was walking to my dream toilet in profound bliss and awareness was totally transparent and non-dual - the entire dream toilet surroundings was experienced without subject/object dichotomy, there is no sense of a center or circumference left, only vivid transparency. And it was intensely blissful...
The difference between this and previous experiences is that in previous instances, there was a dissolution into formless pure presence, while this time it is like non-dual clear light is experienced within dreams instead of dissolution of dream.
Just a sharing. I'm not a good practitioner, this sort of thing doesn't occur on a daily basis. I'm sure many are more experienced than I am.
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Piotr Ludwinski, Albert Hong, Rob Matthews and 12 others like this.
Soh: By the way, not toilet, its bathroom. (In Singapore we use the terms synonymously, lol)
January 24 at 10:36pm · Like
Dannon Flynn: This is the clear light of sleep.
January 24 at 10:37pm · Like · 1
Soh: Found a passage from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's 'The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep'' book, it is precise in description:
CLEAR LIGHT DREAMS
There is a third type of dream that occurs when one is far along the path, the clear light dream. It arises from the primordial prana in the central channel. The clear light is generally spoken of in the teachings about sleep yoga and indicates a state free from dream, thought, and image, but there is also a clear light dream in which the dreamer remains in the nature of mind. This is not an easy accomplishment; the practitioner must be very stable in non-dual awareness before the clear light dream arises. Gyalshen Milu Samleg, the author of important commentaries on the Mother Tantra, wrote that he practiced consistently for nine years before he began to have clear light dreams.
Developing the capacity for clear light dreams is similar to developing the capacity of abiding in the non-dual presence of rigpa during the day. In the beginning, rigpa and thought seem different, so that in the experience of rigpa there is no thought, and if thought arises we are distracted and lose rigpa. But
when stability in rigpa is developed, thought simply arises and dissolves without in the least obscuring rigpa; the practitioner remains in non-dual awareness. These situations are similar to learning to play the drum and bell together in ritual practice: in the beginning we can only do one at a time. If we play the bell, we lose the rhythm of the drum, and vice versa. After we are stable we can play both at the same time.
The clear light dream is not the same as the dream of clarity, which, while arising from deep and relatively pure aspects of the mind and generated from positive karmic traces, still takes place in duality. The clear light dream, while emerging from the karmic traces of the past, does not result in dualistic experience. The practitioner does not reconstitute as an observing subject in relation to the dream as an object, nor as a subject in the world of the dream, but abides wholly integrated with non-dual rigpa.
The differences in the three kinds of dreams may seem subtle. Samsaric dream arises from the individual's karmic traces and emotions, and all content of the dream is formed by those traces and emotions. The dream of clarity includes more objective knowledge, which arises from collective karmic traces and is available to consciousness when it is not entangled in personal karmic traces. The consciousness is then not bound by space and time and personal history, and the dreamer can meet with real beings, receive teachings from real teachers, and find information helpful to others as well as to him or herself.
The clear light dream is not defined by the content of the dream, but is a clear light dream because there is no subjective dreamer or dream ego, nor any self in a dualistic relationship with the dream or the dream content. Although a dream arises, it is an activity of the mind that does not disturb the practitioner's stability in clear light.
????????????
"Although we define sleep as unconsciousness, the darkness and experiential blankness are not the essence of sleep. For the pure awareness that is our basis there is no sleep. When not afflicted with obscurations, dreams, or thoughts, the moving mind dissolves into the nature of mind; then, rather than the sleep of ignorance, clarity, peacefulness, and bliss arise. When we develop the ability to abide in that awareness we find that sleep is luminous. This luminosity is the clear light. It is our true nature.
As explained in previous chapters, dreams arise from karmic traces. I used the analogy of light being projected through film to make movies, where the karmic traces are the photographs, awareness is the light that illuminates them, and the dreams are projected on the base (kunzhi*). Dream yoga develops lucidity in relationship to the dream images. But in sleep yoga there is no film and no projection. Sleep yoga is imageless. The practice is the direct recognition of awareness by awareness, light illuminating itself. It is luminosity without images of any kind. Later, when stability in the clear light is developed, even dream images will not distract the practitioner, and the dream period of sleep will also occur in the clear light. These dreams are then called clear light dreams, which are different than dreams of clarity. In clear light dreams, the clear light is not obscured.
We lose the real sense of the clear light as soon as we conceptualize it or try to imagine it. There is neither subject nor object in the clear light. If there is any identification with a subject, then there is no entry into the clear light. Actually, nothing "enters" the clear light: the clear light is the base recognizing itself. There is neither "you" nor "it." Using dualistic language to describe the non- dual necessarily results in paradox. The only way to know the clear light is to know it directly."
January 24 at 11:51pm · Like · 3
Soh: I have lots of dreams of clarity as well (just had another one yesterday as well)... though they often tell me very helpful information about my practise, sometimes involve receiving teachings from teachers, and sometimes it shows future events which are very accurate, but there is not that sort of non-dual lucidity of clear light to those dreams.
January 25 at 12:06am · Edited · Like
Dharma Connection: Lucid Dreaming, Dreams Of Clarity & More
dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com
May 10 at 11:39am · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Soh Soh: Yes! I woke up very refreshed today as well.
The number of hours of sleep also decrease and you begin the day beaming with energy and radiance. Just as Thusness in 2007:
(1:23 AM) Thusness: for non-dual experiencer where there is complete letting go of the illusionary self, there is tremendous progress and if night they are able to, is there real progress?
(1:24 AM) Thusness: then they complete the first cycle.
(1:24 AM) AEN: what u mean by first cycle
(1:25 AM) Thusness: almost 'be' in all 3 stages (waking, dream, deep sleep)
(1:25 AM) AEN: oic
(1:25 AM) AEN: wat u mean by cycles
(1:25 AM) Thusness: when u have a very deep sleep, what happened next morning?
(1:25 AM) AEN: very awake?
(1:25 AM) Thusness: what else?'
(1:25 AM) AEN: mind is clear?
(1:25 AM) AEN: dunno
(1:25 AM) Thusness: continue ...right
(1:26 AM) AEN: the mind becomes less active?
(1:26 AM) Thusness: awake, clear, fresh, energetic, vibrant
(1:26 AM) Thusness: aren't that the seven factors?
(1:26 AM) AEN: oic..
(1:26 AM) AEN: ya
(1:27 AM) Thusness: for a non-dual experiencer, the next day is even so.
(1:27 AM) Thusness: the intensity is even more fantastic
(1:27 AM) Thusness: if this is continuously sustained, will the sleep naturally be shortened?
(1:28 AM) AEN: ya
(1:28 AM) Thusness: isn't it natural?
(1:28 AM) AEN: yes
(1:28 AM) Thusness: isn't the seven factors of enlightenment maintained?
(1:28 AM) AEN: ya
(1:28 AM) Thusness: so know that what is right and correctly discerned.
(1:29 AM) Thusness: buddha's depth of clarity is unsurpassed
(1:29 AM) Thusness: we cannot compare one that has reached that stage of clarity
..........
(3:01 AM) Thusness: and later stage when meditation is stabilized using non-dual and the door of impermanence, then there will be deep sleep with absolutely no problem but the no. of sleeping hours naturally lessen.
(3:02 AM) Thusness: and there is no problem like her case.
(3:02 AM) Thusness: but that is not a problem becoz of deep rest and sleep and allowing our emptiness to manifest.
(3:03 AM) Thusness: we will feel radiance bright instead of zoombieness....hehehe
January 25 at 5:05am · Edited · Like
Soh: Just found a passage in 2006 where Thusness described what I experienced. And he is very right in pointing out the vast difference between 1) maintaining a state of witnessing awareness in sleep, which is dualistic, or 2) lucid dream, as compared to 3) non-dual knowing in dream and sleep.
(12:15 AM) John: the strength in the waking state of total presence is the experience of all physical phenomenon arising as pure awareness
(12:16 AM) John: but when in dreams, such experience must sustain
(12:16 AM) John: that is instead of the physical appearance of phenomenon arising, it is symbolic apperance of arising as the manifestation of pure awareness.
(12:16 AM) John: not a form of intellectual knowledge
(12:17 AM) John: just like the experience of anatta in waking state, the same experience extended to dreamstate.
(12:17 AM) John: it is entirely different.
(12:17 AM) John: it is difficult for me to tell u.
(12:18 AM) John: when one experience the experience of no-self during waking state, one experience total nothingness and absolute transparency but has no single doubt that all and
everything is awareness.
(12:19 AM) John: means he is completely clear yet totally transparent
(12:19 AM) John: in dreams, it is difficult to maintain totally no-self and the symbols as pure awareness
(12:19 AM) John: that is very different from being aware in dreams
(12:19 AM) John: this is dualistic still in dream state.
(12:20 AM) John: that experience of anatta in waking state is not being experienced in dream state.
(12:20 AM) John: this is different from being aware in dreams like an observer.
(12:21 AM) John: one step higher than lucid dreams
(12:21 AM) John: u get what i mean or not?
...
(12:23 AM) John: and most ppl mistaken it as maintaining presence and awareness in dreams as in the form of passive witness
...
(11:39 PM) John: that is maintaining presence
(11:39 PM) John: not sustaining the experience of anatta
(11:40 PM) John: the total transparency but as everything
(11:40 PM) AEN: icic
(11:40 PM) AEN: but anatta is also presence isnt it?
(11:40 PM) John: anatta is the experience of total presence
(11:40 PM) AEN: oic then wats the difference between maintain presence and anatta
(11:40 PM) John: in total different forms every moment
(11:41 PM) John: no... anatta is the experience of total presence.
(11:42 PM) John: manifesting in different forms from moment to moment. It is the experience of total and absolute transparency, without boundary and limit.
(11:42 PM) John: total vividness and clarity.
(11:43 PM) John: absolute transparency is difficult to maintain and can only result from increasing loosening of the bond i told u. Not the result of effort.
(11:43 PM) John: that is why this state must be completely and fully stabilized during waking state.
(11:46 PM) John: total transparent awareness is experiencing everything as awareness.
(11:46 PM) John: and during dreamstate this is the case too.
(11:47 PM) John: this is very difficult to achieve. Not maintaining wakefulness and a sense of presence during the 3 states.
January 25 at 5:13am · Edited · Like
May 10 at 11:40am · Like · 2
Soh Soh: Wrote this in UT:
There was another more recent experience but involving sleep paralysis... you know sometimes in sleep paralysis you may feel a bit frightened and creeped out... or there may be a sense that there are other beings around (called 'the intruder' according to wiki on sleep paralysis). I felt that 'intruder' thing again but this time there was no fear and I gave rise to the intention to pervade the whole room with its apparent beings with the bright luminosity of mind/awareness. And because I was conscious and kept releasing, there was no fear and instead sleep paralysis turned into bliss and luminosity like the previous experiences, awareness was again experienced as vivid transparency, centerless and borderless, no observer/observed duality just vivid transparency appearing as what appeared to be my dark room surroundings.
Then suddenly a weird white flash of light came, very strong and simultaneously there was this almost frightening BOOM! like a nuclear bomb exploded... very very loud sound. Though shocking there was not really fear in it but a thought arose right then "what the hell happened"... but later on I woke up... I found out later its not an uncommon thing, think its called "Exploding head syndrome". Happens in astral travel and sleep paralysis. Incidentally astral travel and sleep paralysis are linked (have experienced OBE in sleep paralysis).
But the main thing is that throughout the whole thing there was no fear and it was blissful... because sleep, or rather sleep paralysis, became clear light.
So from my experience... waking, deep sleep, dream, sleep paralysis can dawn as clear light.
January 30 at 11:08am · Edited · Like · 2
May 10 at 11:41am · Like · 2
David Vardy There's always an awareness of when the non-dual state is 'profoundly grounded', operating 24/7, not because there's been a conscious awareness through deep sleep, but because the sense of deep relaxation is maintained from the moment sleep begins to the moment of awakening in the morning. There's an awareness of no interruption. It's like a tuning fork which has been struck and the sound remains consistently ringing in an infinite loop.
May 10 at 11:53am · Unlike · 2
David Vardy "The clear light dream is not defined by the content of the dream, but is a clear light dream because there is no subjective dreamer or dream ego, nor any self in a dualistic relationship with the dream or the dream content. Although a dream arises, it is an activity of the mind that does not disturb the practitioner's stability in clear light." First time I've heard of this clear light dream. Dreams for me are almost entirely the same each night. They never involve people, only dramatic first time seen landscapes which are awe inspiring. Occasionally they are inhabited by birds or animals. Wind is always there, present in its different forms and sometimes evaluated. Flying is my thing I guess you could say. It's all I'm featured doing. There's nothing quite like it. I actually wrote a piece about it a while ago If you'd like to see it sometime Soh.
May 10 at 11:58am · Unlike · 2
Soh Please share
May 10 at 12:00pm · Like · 1
David Vardy Lucid dreaming is tricky stuff. It can become very ego oriented unless the architecture of the dream is understood.
May 10 at 12:00pm · Unlike · 2
David Vardy I'll post it separately.
May 10 at 12:01pm · Unlike · 2
May 10 · Brisbane · Edited
I had a shift today in which my level of integration into mundane activities has just surpassed anything I've experienced before yet I fully understand it is just a beginning, after which I wrote to Thusness:
"im learning to engage in daily life in complete dispassion and engagement without self.. just one activity at a time. i think piotr said being busy is no excuse for not practicing.. and in between one's activities one should practice etc... i fully agree and i think not only that, the main practice is really in the busy-ness itself, in the full engagement of studying exam, doing work, the messiness of one's daily life if we cannot integrate that then what we only have is brief periods of peace and peak experience... daily life becomes segmented every moment detecting and dropping fetters in activities is the practice.. dropping in meditation is the easy part. opening unreservedly in the midst of all activities... from day to sleep..."
Thusness replied, "Dharma is always in all these mundane activities...it is not just a daily matter...talk when u r back. To hv ur insights and realizations fully integrated and actualized in these activities is what ur Teacher Chen and lzls been trying to advice u also. To spend and donate using ur parents money is not ur generosity ...as I told....lol
Love and let go...earn and give
Leaving no trace is noble and wisdom. Not to over claim when u r still young..."
I said: "hahahaha now i see how silly when i told u recently that my daily life lack of time is a hindrance to dharma practice (a statement I made last month that would seem sad and tragic only yesterday became totally silly after today:
"I wonder how can one really practice if ones schedule is just busy from morning to night.. think its harmful for spiritual practice")
Thusness: "Yes it is exactly where ur dharma practice should be...lol
My neck pain is also dharma practice.
Donation is dharma practice so is business and entertainment ... Lol
Otherwise u will not understand the anatta in the 6 paramitas...it is great actualization of anatta."
Piotr Ludwinski
11:43pm
Piotr Ludwinski
its hard isn it
but how we can expect not being overwhelmed by death and bardo if we are overwhelmed by just living having food, having water and clothes
Soh
11:49pm
Soh
its hard until it gets easier... like learning to ride bycicle lol
bicycle*
btw i love what u quoted from chnn.. if u dun have time for practice then u have time for distraction. lol
LikeLike ·
Viorica Doina Neacsu, Goose Saver, Nick Ong and 16 others like this.
Alan Koek haha yes... sometimes life is so busy with work, studies, etc and we neglected what we should do or ought to do... We give ourselves many excuses...
Sometimes mindfulness also lapses... i often feel it's helpful to reflect what happened, try to constantly recall, remind, to get rid of habitual tendencies.
May 10 at 2:28am · Like · 1
Alan Koek try looking at old people as deva messagers
look at pleasant looking people
tasting nice or lousy food - craving and aversion of taste lol...See More
May 10 at 2:29am · Edited · Like · 1
Daniel Noreen I'm curious as to who "Thusness" is.
May 10 at 2:34am · Like · 1
Soh Yes its so important.. so many excuses... the excuses being part of habitual tendencies, part of delusion, part of our fantasies (about what practice should be and about a particular state of experience etc).
Daily life is really where the practice truly lies. Where we let habitual tendencies liberate.
Another point I should note is that as Thusness said just now, "Yes but writing abt activities not at the right timing is not a good advice imo
Have the insights then actualize them."
The insights, seeing one's true nature, realizing anatta and emptiness, these are vital for integration otherwise there is no basis for our liberation much less liberation in activity.
Nonetheless after that insight, a leap has to be made... I was suddenly reminded of the zen ox herding picture. The description in the 9th oxherding picture is similar to anatta (at least in the commentary I read), but for a long time I couldn't understand why does the 10th picture need a separate picture.
Now I understood.. it opens up a whole new phase of practice for me. This is why I told Thusness that this deserves a posting.. haha. Its really about entering the market place and dirtying your hands!
p.s. the 10th oxherding picture is not buddhahood, its only really the beginning... it has infinite depths and I'm only beginning
Similar examples are given in Five Ranks of Tozan
May 10 at 2:38am · Edited · Like · 12
Piotr Ludwinski You should look at Trungpa's interpretation of ox-herding. It differs completely from yours and Thusness and will be more relevant for what you wrote about. I risk such statement.
May 10 at 2:50am · Unlike · 1
Piotr Ludwinski Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. The Collected Works Volume 1 (chapter "Ox Herding" page 415)
May 10 at 3:06am · Edited · Like · 1
Szymon Wójcik I heard some nice words to this topic just a minute ago from Reggie Ray - "the biggest form of laziness is being busy".
Great post, I'm happy about your discovery. I feel like I just needed to read this. Thanks.
May 10 at 3:46am · Unlike · 6
Joel Agee Here is Chögyam Trungpa's commentary on the Ox-Herding pictures: http://www.shambhala.org/dharma/ctr/oxherding/index.html
Oxherding
www.shambhala.org
Shambhala and Buddhist meditation practice and arts.
May 10 at 4:42am · Edited · Unlike · 8 · Remove Preview
Joel Agee Piotr, why is Trungpa's interpretation of the Oxherding pictures more relevant to the topic of the OP than Soh's take on them?
May 10 at 6:31am · Like · 1
David Vardy Minutes become hours become months and eventually there isn't much to compare with any longer and what was once a dramatic shift as clear as night and day becomes a shift which is almost unnoticeable.
May 10 at 7:26am · Unlike · 2
Soh I kind of like the original poems and commentaries by Zen Master Kubota too:
9th oxherding: http://www.sanbo-zen.org/cow09_e.html
10th oxherding: http://www.sanbo-zen.org/cow10_e.html
Ten Ox-herding Pictures Stage 9
www.sanbo-zen.org
May 10 at 8:05am · Like · 5 · Remove Preview
David Vardy At a point the notion of being reminded of what's happening becomes what's funny. The inclination of an entity which needs to be reminded is so habitual, for lack of a better word, that when that particular manner of speaking is in abeyance for long periods of time, it's return is almost startling. It can't help but bring a chuckle and the accompanying thought "there I am again".....lol
May 10 at 8:20am · Unlike · 2
Soh Yeah... in waking life it is so. For a number of years now there has been no need to remind of anatta... or self... there is no more the sense of self nor a need to remind 'only hearing no hearer' etc etc. That seems extra and only useful when trying to point out certain things for those who hasn't 'seen' it.
Yet the depths of actualization in various aspects of life and sleep seems to be improving and ongoing... subtle habitual patterns to contract and lead to afflictions can still manifest in certain areas of life. Then actualization occurs to liberate these patterns. Even in sleep, and sleep paralysis, the complete dissolution of any sense of self leads to a very different taste and a liberating experience where all sense of self, fear, contraction dissolves into complete bliss and vivid transparency what would otherwise be a most terrifying experience in life (with apparent monsters etc). I wrote about my sleep experiences (had it happen in dreamless sleep, dreams, and sleep paralysis) before but I digress for now.
The funny thing is that the sense of self, negative emotions and suffering tremendously reduced and certain species of mental afflictions simply don't appear much (as far as I discern) anymore after 'anatta' and it seems to be so quite stably in waking state... but tendencies can still arise in sleep. I haven't experienced certain emotions like anger/rage/etc for a long time (though I used to be angry quite often before)... and even things like sorrow.. that I even forgot how it feels like. Yet in one of my dreams I recalled of a relationship with a girl a long time ago.. then when I woke up I remarked that I was suddenly reminded of what sorrow felt like... lol
Thusness told me,
"Lol
Therefore u must know the surface and subtle structure...otherwise y the 3 states
Similarly no noticeable duality can b detected in waking but not in the 3 states"
May 10 at 9:01am · Edited · Like · 2
David Vardy Yes. I went through years processing all this through sleep, maintaining wakefulness through falling asleep, leading into lucid dreaming. It became more real than the normal waking state for quite some time, probably because it was much more eventful and freeing. Being freed of the body notion for hours on end was addictive to say the least. Learning to relax through sleep paralysis seemed an achievement of sorts, a way of relaxing that translated well into the waking state. I always had a great fear of drowning having been close to it as a child. Through lucid dreaming I even learned to swim underwater, breath underwater. Now that fear of drowning is all but gone. Ironically, drowning and its associated asthma was the fiction that kept the idea of being this person very real. It showed up all the time, including being disturbed by the smell of chlorine in pools, any chance there was to be disturbed....lol
May 10 at 9:07am · Unlike · 6
Soh Nice.. do you have experiences of dreams and dreamless sleep dawning as Clear Light? It's not necessarily the same with lucid dreams however. As I wrote in http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/.../lucid...
Soh:
I've had many episodes in the past where I was in conscious lucid dreams, and then the lucid dreams disappeared into pure non-dual Presence, pure knowingness, and it was profoundly blissful. Very very blissful. Samadhi like.
Last night, it was like that again, except the dreams never disappeared - I was walking to my dream toilet in profound bliss and awareness was totally transparent and non-dual - the entire dream toilet surroundings was experienced without subject/object dichotomy, there is no sense of a center or circumference left, only vivid transparency. And it was intensely blissful...
The difference between this and previous experiences is that in previous instances, there was a dissolution into formless pure presence, while this time it is like non-dual clear light is experienced within dreams instead of dissolution of dream.
Just a sharing. I'm not a good practitioner, this sort of thing doesn't occur on a daily basis. I'm sure many are more experienced than I am.
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Soh: By the way, not toilet, its bathroom. (In Singapore we use the terms synonymously, lol)
January 24 at 10:36pm · Like
Dannon Flynn: This is the clear light of sleep.
January 24 at 10:37pm · Like · 1
Soh: Found a passage from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's 'The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep'' book, it is precise in description:
CLEAR LIGHT DREAMS
There is a third type of dream that occurs when one is far along the path, the clear light dream. It arises from the primordial prana in the central channel. The clear light is generally spoken of in the teachings about sleep yoga and indicates a state free from dream, thought, and image, but there is also a clear light dream in which the dreamer remains in the nature of mind. This is not an easy accomplishment; the practitioner must be very stable in non-dual awareness before the clear light dream arises. Gyalshen Milu Samleg, the author of important commentaries on the Mother Tantra, wrote that he practiced consistently for nine years before he began to have clear light dreams.
Developing the capacity for clear light dreams is similar to developing the capacity of abiding in the non-dual presence of rigpa during the day. In the beginning, rigpa and thought seem different, so that in the experience of rigpa there is no thought, and if thought arises we are distracted and lose rigpa. But
when stability in rigpa is developed, thought simply arises and dissolves without in the least obscuring rigpa; the practitioner remains in non-dual awareness. These situations are similar to learning to play the drum and bell together in ritual practice: in the beginning we can only do one at a time. If we play the bell, we lose the rhythm of the drum, and vice versa. After we are stable we can play both at the same time.
The clear light dream is not the same as the dream of clarity, which, while arising from deep and relatively pure aspects of the mind and generated from positive karmic traces, still takes place in duality. The clear light dream, while emerging from the karmic traces of the past, does not result in dualistic experience. The practitioner does not reconstitute as an observing subject in relation to the dream as an object, nor as a subject in the world of the dream, but abides wholly integrated with non-dual rigpa.
The differences in the three kinds of dreams may seem subtle. Samsaric dream arises from the individual's karmic traces and emotions, and all content of the dream is formed by those traces and emotions. The dream of clarity includes more objective knowledge, which arises from collective karmic traces and is available to consciousness when it is not entangled in personal karmic traces. The consciousness is then not bound by space and time and personal history, and the dreamer can meet with real beings, receive teachings from real teachers, and find information helpful to others as well as to him or herself.
The clear light dream is not defined by the content of the dream, but is a clear light dream because there is no subjective dreamer or dream ego, nor any self in a dualistic relationship with the dream or the dream content. Although a dream arises, it is an activity of the mind that does not disturb the practitioner's stability in clear light.
????????????
"Although we define sleep as unconsciousness, the darkness and experiential blankness are not the essence of sleep. For the pure awareness that is our basis there is no sleep. When not afflicted with obscurations, dreams, or thoughts, the moving mind dissolves into the nature of mind; then, rather than the sleep of ignorance, clarity, peacefulness, and bliss arise. When we develop the ability to abide in that awareness we find that sleep is luminous. This luminosity is the clear light. It is our true nature.
As explained in previous chapters, dreams arise from karmic traces. I used the analogy of light being projected through film to make movies, where the karmic traces are the photographs, awareness is the light that illuminates them, and the dreams are projected on the base (kunzhi*). Dream yoga develops lucidity in relationship to the dream images. But in sleep yoga there is no film and no projection. Sleep yoga is imageless. The practice is the direct recognition of awareness by awareness, light illuminating itself. It is luminosity without images of any kind. Later, when stability in the clear light is developed, even dream images will not distract the practitioner, and the dream period of sleep will also occur in the clear light. These dreams are then called clear light dreams, which are different than dreams of clarity. In clear light dreams, the clear light is not obscured.
We lose the real sense of the clear light as soon as we conceptualize it or try to imagine it. There is neither subject nor object in the clear light. If there is any identification with a subject, then there is no entry into the clear light. Actually, nothing "enters" the clear light: the clear light is the base recognizing itself. There is neither "you" nor "it." Using dualistic language to describe the non- dual necessarily results in paradox. The only way to know the clear light is to know it directly."
January 24 at 11:51pm · Like · 3
Soh: I have lots of dreams of clarity as well (just had another one yesterday as well)... though they often tell me very helpful information about my practise, sometimes involve receiving teachings from teachers, and sometimes it shows future events which are very accurate, but there is not that sort of non-dual lucidity of clear light to those dreams.
January 25 at 12:06am · Edited · Like
Dharma Connection: Lucid Dreaming, Dreams Of Clarity & More
dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com
May 10 at 11:39am · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Soh Soh: Yes! I woke up very refreshed today as well.
The number of hours of sleep also decrease and you begin the day beaming with energy and radiance. Just as Thusness in 2007:
(1:23 AM) Thusness: for non-dual experiencer where there is complete letting go of the illusionary self, there is tremendous progress and if night they are able to, is there real progress?
(1:24 AM) Thusness: then they complete the first cycle.
(1:24 AM) AEN: what u mean by first cycle
(1:25 AM) Thusness: almost 'be' in all 3 stages (waking, dream, deep sleep)
(1:25 AM) AEN: oic
(1:25 AM) AEN: wat u mean by cycles
(1:25 AM) Thusness: when u have a very deep sleep, what happened next morning?
(1:25 AM) AEN: very awake?
(1:25 AM) Thusness: what else?'
(1:25 AM) AEN: mind is clear?
(1:25 AM) AEN: dunno
(1:25 AM) Thusness: continue ...right
(1:26 AM) AEN: the mind becomes less active?
(1:26 AM) Thusness: awake, clear, fresh, energetic, vibrant
(1:26 AM) Thusness: aren't that the seven factors?
(1:26 AM) AEN: oic..
(1:26 AM) AEN: ya
(1:27 AM) Thusness: for a non-dual experiencer, the next day is even so.
(1:27 AM) Thusness: the intensity is even more fantastic
(1:27 AM) Thusness: if this is continuously sustained, will the sleep naturally be shortened?
(1:28 AM) AEN: ya
(1:28 AM) Thusness: isn't it natural?
(1:28 AM) AEN: yes
(1:28 AM) Thusness: isn't the seven factors of enlightenment maintained?
(1:28 AM) AEN: ya
(1:28 AM) Thusness: so know that what is right and correctly discerned.
(1:29 AM) Thusness: buddha's depth of clarity is unsurpassed
(1:29 AM) Thusness: we cannot compare one that has reached that stage of clarity
..........
(3:01 AM) Thusness: and later stage when meditation is stabilized using non-dual and the door of impermanence, then there will be deep sleep with absolutely no problem but the no. of sleeping hours naturally lessen.
(3:02 AM) Thusness: and there is no problem like her case.
(3:02 AM) Thusness: but that is not a problem becoz of deep rest and sleep and allowing our emptiness to manifest.
(3:03 AM) Thusness: we will feel radiance bright instead of zoombieness....hehehe
January 25 at 5:05am · Edited · Like
Soh: Just found a passage in 2006 where Thusness described what I experienced. And he is very right in pointing out the vast difference between 1) maintaining a state of witnessing awareness in sleep, which is dualistic, or 2) lucid dream, as compared to 3) non-dual knowing in dream and sleep.
(12:15 AM) John: the strength in the waking state of total presence is the experience of all physical phenomenon arising as pure awareness
(12:16 AM) John: but when in dreams, such experience must sustain
(12:16 AM) John: that is instead of the physical appearance of phenomenon arising, it is symbolic apperance of arising as the manifestation of pure awareness.
(12:16 AM) John: not a form of intellectual knowledge
(12:17 AM) John: just like the experience of anatta in waking state, the same experience extended to dreamstate.
(12:17 AM) John: it is entirely different.
(12:17 AM) John: it is difficult for me to tell u.
(12:18 AM) John: when one experience the experience of no-self during waking state, one experience total nothingness and absolute transparency but has no single doubt that all and
everything is awareness.
(12:19 AM) John: means he is completely clear yet totally transparent
(12:19 AM) John: in dreams, it is difficult to maintain totally no-self and the symbols as pure awareness
(12:19 AM) John: that is very different from being aware in dreams
(12:19 AM) John: this is dualistic still in dream state.
(12:20 AM) John: that experience of anatta in waking state is not being experienced in dream state.
(12:20 AM) John: this is different from being aware in dreams like an observer.
(12:21 AM) John: one step higher than lucid dreams
(12:21 AM) John: u get what i mean or not?
...
(12:23 AM) John: and most ppl mistaken it as maintaining presence and awareness in dreams as in the form of passive witness
...
(11:39 PM) John: that is maintaining presence
(11:39 PM) John: not sustaining the experience of anatta
(11:40 PM) John: the total transparency but as everything
(11:40 PM) AEN: icic
(11:40 PM) AEN: but anatta is also presence isnt it?
(11:40 PM) John: anatta is the experience of total presence
(11:40 PM) AEN: oic then wats the difference between maintain presence and anatta
(11:40 PM) John: in total different forms every moment
(11:41 PM) John: no... anatta is the experience of total presence.
(11:42 PM) John: manifesting in different forms from moment to moment. It is the experience of total and absolute transparency, without boundary and limit.
(11:42 PM) John: total vividness and clarity.
(11:43 PM) John: absolute transparency is difficult to maintain and can only result from increasing loosening of the bond i told u. Not the result of effort.
(11:43 PM) John: that is why this state must be completely and fully stabilized during waking state.
(11:46 PM) John: total transparent awareness is experiencing everything as awareness.
(11:46 PM) John: and during dreamstate this is the case too.
(11:47 PM) John: this is very difficult to achieve. Not maintaining wakefulness and a sense of presence during the 3 states.
January 25 at 5:13am · Edited · Like
May 10 at 11:40am · Like · 2
Soh Soh: Wrote this in UT:
There was another more recent experience but involving sleep paralysis... you know sometimes in sleep paralysis you may feel a bit frightened and creeped out... or there may be a sense that there are other beings around (called 'the intruder' according to wiki on sleep paralysis). I felt that 'intruder' thing again but this time there was no fear and I gave rise to the intention to pervade the whole room with its apparent beings with the bright luminosity of mind/awareness. And because I was conscious and kept releasing, there was no fear and instead sleep paralysis turned into bliss and luminosity like the previous experiences, awareness was again experienced as vivid transparency, centerless and borderless, no observer/observed duality just vivid transparency appearing as what appeared to be my dark room surroundings.
Then suddenly a weird white flash of light came, very strong and simultaneously there was this almost frightening BOOM! like a nuclear bomb exploded... very very loud sound. Though shocking there was not really fear in it but a thought arose right then "what the hell happened"... but later on I woke up... I found out later its not an uncommon thing, think its called "Exploding head syndrome". Happens in astral travel and sleep paralysis. Incidentally astral travel and sleep paralysis are linked (have experienced OBE in sleep paralysis).
But the main thing is that throughout the whole thing there was no fear and it was blissful... because sleep, or rather sleep paralysis, became clear light.
So from my experience... waking, deep sleep, dream, sleep paralysis can dawn as clear light.
January 30 at 11:08am · Edited · Like · 2
May 10 at 11:41am · Like · 2
David Vardy There's always an awareness of when the non-dual state is 'profoundly grounded', operating 24/7, not because there's been a conscious awareness through deep sleep, but because the sense of deep relaxation is maintained from the moment sleep begins to the moment of awakening in the morning. There's an awareness of no interruption. It's like a tuning fork which has been struck and the sound remains consistently ringing in an infinite loop.
May 10 at 11:53am · Unlike · 2
David Vardy "The clear light dream is not defined by the content of the dream, but is a clear light dream because there is no subjective dreamer or dream ego, nor any self in a dualistic relationship with the dream or the dream content. Although a dream arises, it is an activity of the mind that does not disturb the practitioner's stability in clear light." First time I've heard of this clear light dream. Dreams for me are almost entirely the same each night. They never involve people, only dramatic first time seen landscapes which are awe inspiring. Occasionally they are inhabited by birds or animals. Wind is always there, present in its different forms and sometimes evaluated. Flying is my thing I guess you could say. It's all I'm featured doing. There's nothing quite like it. I actually wrote a piece about it a while ago If you'd like to see it sometime Soh.
May 10 at 11:58am · Unlike · 2
Soh Please share
May 10 at 12:00pm · Like · 1
David Vardy Lucid dreaming is tricky stuff. It can become very ego oriented unless the architecture of the dream is understood.
May 10 at 12:00pm · Unlike · 2
David Vardy I'll post it separately.
May 10 at 12:01pm · Unlike · 2
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