Soh
July 9 at 4:04pm · Brisbane · Edited
Inspired by Kenneth Folk's "An Idiots Guide to Dharma Diagnosis". My attempt to summarize some of the insights and experiences I've gone through. (if someone has a better way of expressing, please share :)) Also do note that there is no strictly fixed linear way of progression - the insights/experiences can unfold in somewhat different order for different people.
(Realization+Experience) Non-doership: No control or doership over things, everything is spontaneously happening on its own without effort. Does serious damage to notions of free will. When one sees through the notion of 'self as doer', one realizes freedom does not lie in 'free will' but lies in releasing sense of doership/control which is a subtle aversion going against the flow of happening, contraction, sense of self, holding. One finds joy, freedom and release from 'let live' and 'surrendering'.
(Experience) I AM: I have a glimpse of myself as a sense of changeless Beingness or Awareness or Witness behind everything.
(Realization) I AM: I am EXISTENCE! Doubtless certainty. Sat-chit-ananda: beingness-consciousness-bliss. I am the ground of Being out of which everything emerges. Self-Realization.
(Deconstruction+Experience) Impersonality: I am the one divine life living myself in the body, no different from the life expressing in the trees, in the other human being, or spinning the planet. Dissolving 'self' into a state clean of ego/personal self, not-mine sort of sensation. God-Realization.
(Experience) Intensity of luminosity: Wow, amazing, the textures of touch, the taste of food, the colours and shapes so wonderfully alive and intense!
(Realization/Experience) One Mind: I am this boundless space of awareness, and all forms/thoughts/perceptions are indistinguishable from that field, no inside/outside. Subject-Object inseparability. All is Mind/Self/Awareness/etc.
(Experience) No Mind: Only sound. Only sight. Vividly manifest without background or any sense of self/Self. (Not even a greater 'awareness' being inseparable from forms) This state has the same effect as 'intensity of luminosity' except that all sense of a perceiver is obliterated, i.e. no 'you' looking out from your body at the 'scenery' but only brilliant scenery.
(Deconstruction+Realization+Experience) Anatta: There never is/was a Source/Awareness/Self/Agent/Perceiver/Controller apart from manifestation! In seeing just the seen, no seer. Not only no self but no Self (caps) exists behind phenomena. No Subject. After *realization* of Anatta as the Nature of experience (empty of background subject), the experience of No-Mind becomes an effortless natural state rather than peak experience. Then one sees that no-mind is both wonderful and yet nothing special, as it simply is the natural state of phenomena when released from the extra imputation of Self/observer behind it, it is experienced as the ordinary state of phenomena rather than the 'Wow' factor accompanied by peak No Mind experiences prior to Anatta.
(Deconstruction+Realization+Experience) Mind-body drop: No shapes/boundaries of body, just centerless boundless vibrating energies! Body/self/things as an imputation dissolves through deconstructive insight.
(Deconstruction+Realization+Experience) Groundlessness: No persisting ground, no Here/Now, no coordinating agent, disjoint bubble-like self-releasing thought!
(Deconstruction+Realization+Experience) Maha +A: Totality (dependencies) walking, breathing, seamless process. Mind-body drop transforms into Dharma Body. Six senses reconstruct into one suchness, whole universe in an atom, all nodes in one indra's node.
(Deconstruction+Realization+Experience) Karmic Propensities: Karmic propensities are never hidden, totally exerted! Feel the realness of the amazing creation of the Subject/Object fiction manifesting as one's given experiential reality. Realize the 12 afflictive links of dependent origination where ignorance manifests the whole mass of grasping and suffering.
(Realization+Experience) Emptiness -A: Directly tasting thought/perceptions as clarity without background as basis, further penetrate its nature, that very appearance which dependently originates has never arisen, like a dream or reflection, like a burning flame.
LikeLike ·
Ahmed Abdelmeguid, Laya Jakubowicz, Eezy Isempty and 12 others like this.
Dan Moretti Can you post a link to something which expounds this soteriology a bit? These are great descriptions, but the questions I would like to get toward answering are along the lines of 'how does this map correspond to other Buddhist models of realization' and so on, just so that I can arrive at a better understanding.
July 9 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
Soh Hi Dan Moretti, I have not found a Buddhist map that completely correlates with mine, however, there are clearly overlaps. Is there anything you would like to compare with?
July 9 at 8:47pm · Like
Empty Set This inspired me to write up a similar progression from my own experience. Soh, I think I am chronologically older than you but less advanced on "the path", however it's conceived of. I've experienced something like everything you described up through anatta, but nothing after that. The sequence is also different in some ways here. I'm interested in these sorts of maps, especially the question of what in them is universal in human spiritual development vs. what is specific to different religious traditions, cultures, and individual personalities and histories.
July 10 at 12:06am · Like
Soh Just updated the map a little. May update again in the coming days
July 10 at 12:26am · Like
Soh Empty Set: Can you share your experiences as well?
July 10 at 12:27am · Like
Empty Set Note also that what I refer to as my "anatta" stage is probably not precisely what is referred to as "anatta" above.
July 10 at 12:32am · Like
Empty Set Background: Westerner, born, raised, and living in USA in culture that is vaguely Christian. Religious upbringing strongly influenced by secular humanism and also included exposure to the world's other major religions. Scientific educational background, rationalist tendencies, strong interest in the natural world. Practice: Ongoing "communing with Nature" by spending time in natural areas (hiking in woods, trips to mountains and seaside). Intermittent, then increasing, practice of Buddhist-type mindfulness/ vipassana meditation and study of Buddhism over the years. Some Advaita- influenced self- inquiry practices in the last year. Wonder- Experiences of the beauty and power of nature, art, religious and cultural symbols. A sense of being "drawn out ofmyself" towards something larger. Temporary experiences generating strong, meaningful memories. Unity/ interbeing- Intellectual understanding of being part of and interdependent with larger wholes- human society, nature, cosmos, followed by experiences of losing sense of boundaries between self and other. Experiences are transient, but intellectual understanding is solid and persistent. Impermanence- Experience is clearly seen as consisting of multitudes of quickly coming- and- going sensations and thoughts. Direct and persistent experiential realization. Accompanied by some psychological distress/ "dark night". Reality of Second Noble Truth (suffering results from clinging to things that are subject to change) becomes vivid.
July 10 at 12:39am · Unlike · 2
Empty Set Immediacy- Recognition that sensations precede the division between self and other, which occurs in conceptual thought. Awareness of sensations independent of conceptual self/ other division occurs, but not all the time. When it does occur, there is a remarkable clarity and vividness to experience. Primary duality in experience shifts towards division between sensate experience and conceptual thought rather than self/ other division. State of "Unity" consciousness becomes more frequent. Pleasant.
July 10 at 12:40am · Unlike · 2
Empty Set Anatta- Sense of boundary between self and other comes and goes. When it is present it is seen as arbitrary and constantly shifting. Thoughts and emotions increasingly seen as phenomena not fundamentally different from sensations with more immediate "external" causes. Belief in "free will" abandoned; thoughts, emotions, actions of self and others seen as impersonal conditioned processes. Anger and
judgment towards self and others still occur, but are seen as only afflictive and counterproductive, not justified. Emotions, both positive and negative, often very "alive", but alternate with periods of apathy and even nihilism.
July 10 at 12:40am · Unlike · 2
Empty Set Current leading edge- Developing acceptance and compassion towards afflictive emotions and unskillful behavior, both my own and others'.
July 10 at 12:41am · Unlike · 2
Soh Thanks for sharing Yeah, what you described is not exactly same as what I wrote - especially anatta as a realization. I think your experiences are related to non-doership and impersonality. Can you describe what you mean by "unity consciousness" and what is the experience like when the sense of boundary between self and other goes?
July 10 at 12:45am · Edited · Like
Ej Alex Hi Soh, how would you relate that what Kenneth is calling 3rd-gear practice to your own development? "I Am" is 2nd-gear (by the way, what is a non-dual thought? Direct experience on the mind level in contrast to one-mind that is non-dual in every sense-door? It´s confusing because how can can you call something non-dual thought without the presence of thoughts?). Is one-mind realization without previously I Am even possible? But as far as I see it, Ken doesn´t make a clear distinction between substantial and empty non-dualism in his 3rd-gear. He said 3rd-gear is all about Rigpa, but I think that you equate Rigpa to I AM (which he is calling 2nd-gear) (I think for him 2nd-gear is the Witness and after its collapse it turns to 3rd-gear Rigpa). That empty aspect seems to come in play within his 1st-gear vipassana noting. Oh and I think I read somewhere that you mentioned that there is a difference between the results of Kenneth Folk- and Daniel Ingram-noting-style vipassana. Why are they different, aren´t they using the same technique? Is it even possible to compare this kind of vipassana to the direct contemplation on Bahiya Sutta? Or, does the contemplation on Bahiya Sutta even make sense without previously engaging in self-inquiry? (I think, I read that John mentioned that there is no Anatta without I AM and Simpo considered I AM as a waste of time). Ah, so many questions
July 10 at 1:35am · Like
Soh Hi Ej Alex:
At I AM level of understanding, the I AM is seen as inherent. Meaning it is not seen as a thought, not seen as manifestation, but is the Self behind all thoughts and manifestation. It is pure beingness and awareness only.
At the anatta level of understanding, we relook at the "I AM" and realize that too is only ever foreground manifestation, it is a non-conceptual thought. It is what Tibetan traditions call 'subtle clear light' - even that is seen as momentary manifestation. I AM is a foreground thought - awareness - apprehending 'itself'. It is no different in taste than a sight apprehending itself in a PCE or a sound... etc. It has nothing to do with a background Self except as an afterthought or reification due to karmic propensities.
Is one-mind possible without I AM? It is possible. As for 3rd gear, back in 2009 his description of nondual/3rd gear were all about One Mind. Then in late 2010 or early 2011 he started to describe a new phase which is more related to No Mind where even the sense of an 'awareness' is dissolved and what's left of luminous manifestations without a sense of agency, a result of his experimentations with 'direct mode' which may or may not be influenced by the debates on AF/PCE at that time. I think he called it the 7th or 8th or 9th stage in his model of things. At least that is how I understood it - I am not very familiar with his teachings.
His description of 1st gear doesnt seem to have anything to do with what I call "empty", because his 1st gear is dissociative by nature, while I'm talking about looking at the bare nondual apprehension of a manifestation - a thought, perception, and looking at its nature.
I do not recall talking about the difference between KF and DI style vipassana, perhaps you can remind me? You should also understand that even before what I call realization of anatta, Daniel Ingram went off into Tibetan Buddhism at 3rd path when he was having glimpses of nondual luminosity (which interestingly he disappointedly couldn't find his Theravadin teachers speaking about), then during a retreat deeply contemplated based on Bahiya Sutta and Theravada standard dharma seals and broke through to anatta. Kenneth Folk went off Mahasi into Advaita first, then Tibetan, then through direct mode and Bahiya Sutta (possibly) broke through into No Mind and Anatta (however I'm not sure if he sees 'anatta' as a dharma seal realization or merely as a state of No Mind). So both of them, in my opinion, broke off from standard Mahasi noting technique to get to their realization of anatta. Also, Daniel says that at later stage of practice, even in Mahasi tradition, they will be asked to drop the 'noting' aspect. IMO: noting is not direct enough and although helpful at beginning stages, it has to give way to a more direct mode of contemplation for the direct realization of anatta.
Does Bahiya Sutta work without I AM realization? Of course it does. Example: Daniel Ingram did not go through I Am realization.
July 10 at 2:23am · Edited · Like · 3
Soh "John mentioned that there is no Anatta without I AM"
I think you're mistaken. It is not necessary to realize I AM in order to realize anatta. But for me I find realization of I AM to be an important realization into the direct luminosity of Mind. This direct taste of luminosity may only come later for some practitioners, but it is the first step for me and the path becomes the unfolding of this taste and making it effortless and natural.
July 10 at 2:42am · Edited · Like · 1
Empty Set This is really interesting! To try to match up our terminology, I think my "anatta" matches up with your non- doership + impersonality + a varying, intermittent "sense of self" manifesting as tension/ tightness/ contraction in the head, chest, or whole body, or as a subtle emotional possessiveness of a "personal space" of about a couple of feet (1m or less) away from my body. These are as impermanent and impersonal as everything else. When the "sense of self" is gone, I'm in the "one- mind" or "no- mind" state. Your "anatta" = any sense of self, center, or Witness goes away and stays away, do I understand correctly?
July 10 at 3:52am · Unlike · 2
Òskar K. Linares Myself?: after experiencing and realizing IAM, no-doership & imperrsonality experience (in that order) as described by Soh, I think now I'm moving day after day between no-mind and one-mind experiences as described by Soh, is that possible? Brilliant scenery, with very subtle sense of me, mainly thoughts and percepctions floating but algo a strong sense that the perceived universe is becoming very, very intimate... The experience is nearly 24 hours but varying in intensity... also is very evident the rejection of my body to the contraction every time "I" appears in mind, but I dont feel like there's no Me, so NO Anatta, by now. That description isnt very acurate but its hard for me to explain in english.
July 10 at 4:03am · Edited · Like · 1
Empty Set Your "I AM" and "one- mind" are interesting to me, because I have had the experience of "being the Witness" plenty of times but never held any belief or had any sense that I was experiencing, or experiencing an aspect of, any kind of all- pervading Consciousness. It's more like, "Huh, that's interesting, I feel like I'm watching myself see/ hear/ do stuff". Sometimes it's felt unpleasantly dissociative. It happened most frequently during my late Impermanence and early Immediacy stages, but has also happened before and sometimes still happens. I'm thinking about this and it seems like my "Witness" would be your "I AM" experience. Your "one- mind" would be my "Gee, that's funny, I feel like all this stuff that's going on is me!" That's happened to me a few times, followed by an internal case of the giggles, followed by a "no- mind" or "sense of self" or "Witness" state. I've never had any belief in a "Self", so it ended up being "it feels like my personal lower-case-s self is also this chair, that bookcase, this room, that tree, the cosmos...", which felt ridiculous- cue giggles.
July 10 at 4:09am · Like
Òskar K. Linares Empty Set I also have sometimes that dissociative experience of seeing myself doing things from ¿above? but I dont think it's IAM realization, I think its just an impersonality experience, and never lasts. It doesnt feel very right for me, and I dont try to repeat it...
July 10 at 4:12am · Like
Soh "Your "anatta" = any sense of self, center, or Witness goes away and stays away, do I understand correctly?"
For me, anatta is a dharma seal and it has to be realized It is not just a matter of dissolving away of any sense of self, center or Witness - that also happens in No Mind, but rather, anatta realization is realizing that in seeing only just scenery, no seer, in action just doing, no doer, in hearing just sound, no hearer, everything is self-felt, self-seen, happening on its own without any self/Self behind it. This 'anatta' is seen to always already be the case, it is not a stage or experience where the sense of self falls away, but the nature of reality. But due to overcoming the delusion of 'self' through realizing anatta, the state of no mind becomes a natural state.
July 10 at 4:13am · Edited · Like
Soh My "I AM" is not really a state of witnessing. It is a direct non-dual apprehension of Pure Beingness/Awareness. There are also different degrees of I AM realization. However due to propensities, after that moment of realization, it appears to be a background Witness.
July 10 at 4:16am · Like · 1
Empty Set I don't think I've had, or ever will have, an I AM realization, since I don't have the belief structure for it. I've had experiences of identifying with a sense of watching or witnessing, but they don't stick. They can be pleasant or unpleasant.
July 10 at 4:16am · Like
Òskar K. Linares Same that Soh about IAM, not really a permanent witness....
July 10 at 4:18am · Like
Empty Set There seem to be multiple "anattas" here:
July 10 at 4:20am · Like
Empty Set 1) The doctrine or concept that there is no self, Self, or soul at the core of a human being's existence. Can be believed in the same way as having a belief that there is, or isn't, a God, not related one way or another to any experience or realization.
July 10 at 4:21am · Like
Empty Set 2) The felt recognition that any "sense of self" that occurs is not a self/Self, and is therefore in some sense illusory.
July 10 at 4:22am · Like
Empty Set 3) The view in 1) becomes a direct and persistent experience.
July 10 at 4:23am · Like
Empty Set My "anatta" described above is anatta 2), and that also sounds similar to Òskar's experience. Not long ago I thought the natural next "step" for me was closer examination of the "sense of self" with anatta 3) in mind. But a certain amount of grumpy, angry, self- critical conditioning is in the way. It was feeling less like deconstructing the "sense of self" and more like hostility towards myself. It feels tied up with the short temper I can have towards others too. So it feels like time for a detour onto a different axis of development for a while.
July 10 at 4:30am · Like
Empty Set Not sure how my "unity" consciousness state (distinct from "unity" realization) matches up. It's feeling "one with everything". ("I AM"? "One- mind"?) I believe it's a common experience among Westerners with nature- mystic tendencies.
July 10 at 4:40am · Like
Empty Set It can shade over into "no- mind"- "no me, just everything, or just whatever's going on with no perception of separation"
July 10 at 4:42am · Like
Lindsay Funk I find maps a lot of fun, and it's great to trade notes, but I'm also uneasy about them because they often seem to be perceived as a hierarchy of truth. I like to think what's important is the flexibility of multiple perspectives. IME, it's not like one perspective negates other, previous perspectives, but that more and more perspectives can be included, which prevents clinging to any one perspective. The insights, it seems, are infinite, but some are particularly useful in reducing suffering.
July 10 at 5:11am · Like · 2
Brian Zey Great thread Soh, Thanks!!
July 10 at 5:16am · Like
Empty Set Lindsay, I agree- this goes along with emptiness in a philosophical sense (distinct from emptiness realization) that sees any view as "empty" of inherent reality. Clinging to ideas as True with a capital T rather than as useful models to aid understanding and activity is a major source of dukkha in my opinion. I've experienced some of this with the developmental maps where they can lead to egocentric "Look at how enlightened I am! Yay me!" or negative-egocentric "Alas, everyone's so much further along than I'll ever be! Maybe sometime in my next hundred lifetimes... (sigh)" thoughts and feelings.
July 10 at 5:55am · Like
Empty Set Soh, do you consider yourself "done" in any sense? I know Daniel Ingrahm refers to himself as an "arahant" (if he still does) based on a realization level that I think matches "anatta 3)" in my scheme. I know "arahant" is a really loaded term, but he says he feels like his development along some axis is complete, and I can imagine how reaching "anatta 3)" could feel like that. I went through the Liberation Unleashed process, which brought me to "anatta 2)", and even that had a sort of "done" feeling for a while. Of course, that "done" feeling was impermanent like so much else
July 10 at 6:03am · Like
Empty Set Daniel also had what he might call "post- arahant" development along a different axis more related to the emotions when he was working with the Actual Freedom practices. But I think he still doubts that it's possible to drop the negative-emotion fetters completely.
July 10 at 6:06am · Like
Soh The realization of anatta was done in the sense that nothing could subtract it or add to it (however it can be applied to all other things, therefore from another perspective, yes the insight can deepen). There is not a single moment from the point I realized it (four years ago) that I feel I had lost the realization. That realization has that quality of unshakeable stability. Even now, anatta is naturally actualized in mundane activities like typing this message, only the action of typing, only the shapes/colours appearing vividly, there is a pristine clarity that is only manifestation without any agent or self/Self. That's all, there simply is no imputation of an extra agent or self/Self, it can't happen even if I try - just like I can't force myself to believe that santa claus is real once it is doubtlessly seen to be false and non-existent.
That said: no, I do not agree that Daniel Ingram or myself is 'done', because I hold the fetter model literally. In other words, I do not consider that his arahantship is equivalent to Buddha's version of arahantship, and I think all true Buddhists should at least strive to attain liberation from affliction, samsara, rebirth, fetters, suffering, etc in its entirety. (Especially if you believe in rebirth - otherwise who cares? lol)
July 10 at 6:14am · Edited · Like · 1
Empty Set Another source of confusion here is that people I know, or know of, will use the term "stream entry" to mean sometimes what seems like "anatta 2)", sometimes like "anatta 3)", and sometimes something else entirely.
July 10 at 6:09am · Like
Soh In my mind, stream entry is more like what I call direct realization of anatta... which results in completely putting an end to false view of self. One can have glimpses of impersonality, nondoership etc, but it does not mean one has put an end to the view that a self exists beyond or within phenomena. For example, non-doership can be experienced while believing in an eternal Self that is 'Pure Consciousness' standing apart from that aggregates. Only in the direct realization of anatta that there is no one (including 'Self') behind the aggregates (or within them) that the self-view is put to an end forever.
July 10 at 6:16am · Edited · Like
Soh It is not just a 'recognition' but a direct realization... when the imputation of Self dissolves through direct realization, one directly tastes the arising and ceasing of dharmas. Total exertion as arising and what arises conditionally ceases. That to me, is the awakening of the Dharma Eye that defines stream entry. Otherwise it is nothing direct, and what is not direct apprehension is not what I consider as 'Realization'. This is why I consider 'noting' to be insufficient. It is not about noting impermanence or not-self or labelling phenomena... one can 'recognise' something about the seals that way, but it is different from 'realization' where one's entire being is the direct touch of impermanence.
July 10 at 6:25am · Edited · Like · 1
Empty Set I've got to stop commenting on this thread and go do something more useful soon , but I think a lot of Buddhists as well as agnostic/ atheist/ secular- type people could agree to "anatta 1)" as a statement of belief without any associated shift in lived experience. I was there for a long time. I had no belief in a personal soul or transcendent Self, and saw my personal self as simply "my" body, mind, and personal history. When I started examining my belief structure a bit more, it became clear parts of it were incoherent, since I still had some belief in "free will" and that the "sense of self" was really "me"- and if it wasn't "me, the body and mind", but "-my- body and mind", what was this owner??
July 10 at 6:25am · Like
Soh That is a good point. For a long time prior to the realization of anatta in 2010 I too believe in the concept of anatta. Yet the sense of self is very strong. To this point, Thusness commented that it simply shows that the strength of karmic propensities is much stronger than the sum of all my faith. That is, it doesn't matter what your mental belief or concept or position about self and the world is. You can be a Buddhist, nihilist, eternalist, creationist, materialist, and yet your sense of self is still as strong in each case. It is the very deeply held imprint of ignorance that manifests in our moment to moment experience. It only begins to dissolve after direct insight (of various kinds)
July 10 at 6:30am · Edited · Like · 2
John Tan Hi Soh,
I think u missed the 12 nidanas of dependent origination.
Prior to anatta, Self is a true existence -- very real, very concrete and “I AM” is that full blown experience of this Self.
After anatta, it does not mean “sense of self” does not arise. Contrary, it is due to the continual arising of the sense self that gives rise to the insight of 12 nidanas of dependent origination.
In order words, with the insight of anatta, true existence of Self becomes nothing more than a sense or an impression of self – the clear recognition that self/Self is just an IMPRESSION, the entire idea of “Self” is learned; the experience of Self is a fabrication.
How does the sense and impression come about?
The impression is generated by the chain reaction of habitual tendency fueled by ignorance and because of the clear seeing of this karmic chain of reactions, one also sees what needs to be done and the clear discernment that what is meant by nothing is left undone – the purging and releasing from the karmic chain.
So seeing through the “background I” isn’t enough for anatta (imo), there must be clear discernment of this chain reaction.
July 10 at 9:41am · Unlike · 6
Soh I think grasping after realization of anatta manifests in different way. No longer is there grasping at a "background I", but it does not mean there is no grasping at other aspects like 'mine' or clinging to forms of thought patterns. I remember Newbuddhist Richard said that his grasping is not so much about a transcendental Self but the pains he felt as a father caring for his son when his son got bullied etc. As for me, although I have not faced such things yet (as I am not a father), I still think my anatta need to complement with shamatha and dispassion and letting go to overcome all thought patterns. Even if the universe is about to end... hopefully, may I experience release
July 10 at 4:06pm · Edited · Like · 1
Soh BTW I can see that the apparent true existence of 'Self' is an impression and that impression is in total exertion when the conditioning false views and ignorance are strongly acting... forming into an experiential reality like the Eternal Witness. As it has no basis apart from ignorance, that too releases via actualizing insight.
This is what I wrote on karmic propensities: (Deconstruction+Realization+Experience) Karmic Propensities: Karmic propensities are never hidden, totally exerted! Feel the realness of the amazing creation of the Subject/Object fiction manifesting as one's given experiential reality.
July 10 at 4:22pm · Edited · Like
Òskar K. Linares Oh. I think I will translate carefully this thread to spanish in my blog, so I'll be sure I wont miss any thing. I can hide de names if you want so, John Tan, Soh and Empty Set. Thank you. My actual feeling is like the one of Soh 4 years ago, I'm completely convinced of Anatta, I can even see clearly how every thought arises form nothing without volition and do the deeds, but that's not a realization, so work must be done, I hope conditions are the ones required...
July 10 at 5:02pm · Unlike · 1
Soh Cool I may still edit this thread in the coming days though..
July 10 at 5:04pm · Like
Kyle Dixon Good thread for the DC blog too
July 10 at 5:20pm · Unlike · 3
Òskar K. Linares OK, Soh, please let me know when you're over if it's possible.
July 10 at 5:37pm · Like
Soh lol Thusness just told me there are 7 to 8 points I should have clearer expression... so... maybe not so soon
July 10 at 5:38pm · Like
Òskar K. Linares Jaja
July 10 at 5:38pm · Like
Empty Set Oskar and Soh, please go ahead and include my comments in whatever way you'd like. Go ahead and call me Empty Set- it's a pseudonym, after all! I request that you include Lindsay's comment (if it's OK with her) and my reply, since for a while the maps were a hindrance for me! I have some more comments about my understanding of SWY's anatta realization/ my "anatta 3"/ Daniel I.'s 4th path or "arahant", an attainment I don't claim but may take as a goal at some point. I'll post them later today
July 11 at 12:52am · Like · 1
Òskar K. Linares Yes. I will. Thank you all for your help.
July 11 at 2:32am · Like
Empty Set One last note: I am currently a Liberation Unleashed guide, working with someone with a Yoga/ Advaita background. If the guiding is successful, it may lead him to I AM or one-mind! Fine by me It's helping "me" (hah!) deepen "anatta 2)" and may be leading towards "anatta 3)"
July 11 at 2:39am · Like
July 9 at 4:04pm · Brisbane · Edited
Inspired by Kenneth Folk's "An Idiots Guide to Dharma Diagnosis". My attempt to summarize some of the insights and experiences I've gone through. (if someone has a better way of expressing, please share :)) Also do note that there is no strictly fixed linear way of progression - the insights/experiences can unfold in somewhat different order for different people.
(Realization+Experience) Non-doership: No control or doership over things, everything is spontaneously happening on its own without effort. Does serious damage to notions of free will. When one sees through the notion of 'self as doer', one realizes freedom does not lie in 'free will' but lies in releasing sense of doership/control which is a subtle aversion going against the flow of happening, contraction, sense of self, holding. One finds joy, freedom and release from 'let live' and 'surrendering'.
(Experience) I AM: I have a glimpse of myself as a sense of changeless Beingness or Awareness or Witness behind everything.
(Realization) I AM: I am EXISTENCE! Doubtless certainty. Sat-chit-ananda: beingness-consciousness-bliss. I am the ground of Being out of which everything emerges. Self-Realization.
(Deconstruction+Experience) Impersonality: I am the one divine life living myself in the body, no different from the life expressing in the trees, in the other human being, or spinning the planet. Dissolving 'self' into a state clean of ego/personal self, not-mine sort of sensation. God-Realization.
(Experience) Intensity of luminosity: Wow, amazing, the textures of touch, the taste of food, the colours and shapes so wonderfully alive and intense!
(Realization/Experience) One Mind: I am this boundless space of awareness, and all forms/thoughts/perceptions are indistinguishable from that field, no inside/outside. Subject-Object inseparability. All is Mind/Self/Awareness/etc.
(Experience) No Mind: Only sound. Only sight. Vividly manifest without background or any sense of self/Self. (Not even a greater 'awareness' being inseparable from forms) This state has the same effect as 'intensity of luminosity' except that all sense of a perceiver is obliterated, i.e. no 'you' looking out from your body at the 'scenery' but only brilliant scenery.
(Deconstruction+Realization+Experience) Anatta: There never is/was a Source/Awareness/Self/Agent/Perceiver/Controller apart from manifestation! In seeing just the seen, no seer. Not only no self but no Self (caps) exists behind phenomena. No Subject. After *realization* of Anatta as the Nature of experience (empty of background subject), the experience of No-Mind becomes an effortless natural state rather than peak experience. Then one sees that no-mind is both wonderful and yet nothing special, as it simply is the natural state of phenomena when released from the extra imputation of Self/observer behind it, it is experienced as the ordinary state of phenomena rather than the 'Wow' factor accompanied by peak No Mind experiences prior to Anatta.
(Deconstruction+Realization+Experience) Mind-body drop: No shapes/boundaries of body, just centerless boundless vibrating energies! Body/self/things as an imputation dissolves through deconstructive insight.
(Deconstruction+Realization+Experience) Groundlessness: No persisting ground, no Here/Now, no coordinating agent, disjoint bubble-like self-releasing thought!
(Deconstruction+Realization+Experience) Maha +A: Totality (dependencies) walking, breathing, seamless process. Mind-body drop transforms into Dharma Body. Six senses reconstruct into one suchness, whole universe in an atom, all nodes in one indra's node.
(Deconstruction+Realization+Experience) Karmic Propensities: Karmic propensities are never hidden, totally exerted! Feel the realness of the amazing creation of the Subject/Object fiction manifesting as one's given experiential reality. Realize the 12 afflictive links of dependent origination where ignorance manifests the whole mass of grasping and suffering.
(Realization+Experience) Emptiness -A: Directly tasting thought/perceptions as clarity without background as basis, further penetrate its nature, that very appearance which dependently originates has never arisen, like a dream or reflection, like a burning flame.
LikeLike ·
Ahmed Abdelmeguid, Laya Jakubowicz, Eezy Isempty and 12 others like this.
Dan Moretti Can you post a link to something which expounds this soteriology a bit? These are great descriptions, but the questions I would like to get toward answering are along the lines of 'how does this map correspond to other Buddhist models of realization' and so on, just so that I can arrive at a better understanding.
July 9 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
Soh Hi Dan Moretti, I have not found a Buddhist map that completely correlates with mine, however, there are clearly overlaps. Is there anything you would like to compare with?
July 9 at 8:47pm · Like
Empty Set This inspired me to write up a similar progression from my own experience. Soh, I think I am chronologically older than you but less advanced on "the path", however it's conceived of. I've experienced something like everything you described up through anatta, but nothing after that. The sequence is also different in some ways here. I'm interested in these sorts of maps, especially the question of what in them is universal in human spiritual development vs. what is specific to different religious traditions, cultures, and individual personalities and histories.
July 10 at 12:06am · Like
Soh Just updated the map a little. May update again in the coming days
July 10 at 12:26am · Like
Soh Empty Set: Can you share your experiences as well?
July 10 at 12:27am · Like
Empty Set Note also that what I refer to as my "anatta" stage is probably not precisely what is referred to as "anatta" above.
July 10 at 12:32am · Like
Empty Set Background: Westerner, born, raised, and living in USA in culture that is vaguely Christian. Religious upbringing strongly influenced by secular humanism and also included exposure to the world's other major religions. Scientific educational background, rationalist tendencies, strong interest in the natural world. Practice: Ongoing "communing with Nature" by spending time in natural areas (hiking in woods, trips to mountains and seaside). Intermittent, then increasing, practice of Buddhist-type mindfulness/ vipassana meditation and study of Buddhism over the years. Some Advaita- influenced self- inquiry practices in the last year. Wonder- Experiences of the beauty and power of nature, art, religious and cultural symbols. A sense of being "drawn out ofmyself" towards something larger. Temporary experiences generating strong, meaningful memories. Unity/ interbeing- Intellectual understanding of being part of and interdependent with larger wholes- human society, nature, cosmos, followed by experiences of losing sense of boundaries between self and other. Experiences are transient, but intellectual understanding is solid and persistent. Impermanence- Experience is clearly seen as consisting of multitudes of quickly coming- and- going sensations and thoughts. Direct and persistent experiential realization. Accompanied by some psychological distress/ "dark night". Reality of Second Noble Truth (suffering results from clinging to things that are subject to change) becomes vivid.
July 10 at 12:39am · Unlike · 2
Empty Set Immediacy- Recognition that sensations precede the division between self and other, which occurs in conceptual thought. Awareness of sensations independent of conceptual self/ other division occurs, but not all the time. When it does occur, there is a remarkable clarity and vividness to experience. Primary duality in experience shifts towards division between sensate experience and conceptual thought rather than self/ other division. State of "Unity" consciousness becomes more frequent. Pleasant.
July 10 at 12:40am · Unlike · 2
Empty Set Anatta- Sense of boundary between self and other comes and goes. When it is present it is seen as arbitrary and constantly shifting. Thoughts and emotions increasingly seen as phenomena not fundamentally different from sensations with more immediate "external" causes. Belief in "free will" abandoned; thoughts, emotions, actions of self and others seen as impersonal conditioned processes. Anger and
judgment towards self and others still occur, but are seen as only afflictive and counterproductive, not justified. Emotions, both positive and negative, often very "alive", but alternate with periods of apathy and even nihilism.
July 10 at 12:40am · Unlike · 2
Empty Set Current leading edge- Developing acceptance and compassion towards afflictive emotions and unskillful behavior, both my own and others'.
July 10 at 12:41am · Unlike · 2
Soh Thanks for sharing Yeah, what you described is not exactly same as what I wrote - especially anatta as a realization. I think your experiences are related to non-doership and impersonality. Can you describe what you mean by "unity consciousness" and what is the experience like when the sense of boundary between self and other goes?
July 10 at 12:45am · Edited · Like
Ej Alex Hi Soh, how would you relate that what Kenneth is calling 3rd-gear practice to your own development? "I Am" is 2nd-gear (by the way, what is a non-dual thought? Direct experience on the mind level in contrast to one-mind that is non-dual in every sense-door? It´s confusing because how can can you call something non-dual thought without the presence of thoughts?). Is one-mind realization without previously I Am even possible? But as far as I see it, Ken doesn´t make a clear distinction between substantial and empty non-dualism in his 3rd-gear. He said 3rd-gear is all about Rigpa, but I think that you equate Rigpa to I AM (which he is calling 2nd-gear) (I think for him 2nd-gear is the Witness and after its collapse it turns to 3rd-gear Rigpa). That empty aspect seems to come in play within his 1st-gear vipassana noting. Oh and I think I read somewhere that you mentioned that there is a difference between the results of Kenneth Folk- and Daniel Ingram-noting-style vipassana. Why are they different, aren´t they using the same technique? Is it even possible to compare this kind of vipassana to the direct contemplation on Bahiya Sutta? Or, does the contemplation on Bahiya Sutta even make sense without previously engaging in self-inquiry? (I think, I read that John mentioned that there is no Anatta without I AM and Simpo considered I AM as a waste of time). Ah, so many questions
July 10 at 1:35am · Like
Soh Hi Ej Alex:
At I AM level of understanding, the I AM is seen as inherent. Meaning it is not seen as a thought, not seen as manifestation, but is the Self behind all thoughts and manifestation. It is pure beingness and awareness only.
At the anatta level of understanding, we relook at the "I AM" and realize that too is only ever foreground manifestation, it is a non-conceptual thought. It is what Tibetan traditions call 'subtle clear light' - even that is seen as momentary manifestation. I AM is a foreground thought - awareness - apprehending 'itself'. It is no different in taste than a sight apprehending itself in a PCE or a sound... etc. It has nothing to do with a background Self except as an afterthought or reification due to karmic propensities.
Is one-mind possible without I AM? It is possible. As for 3rd gear, back in 2009 his description of nondual/3rd gear were all about One Mind. Then in late 2010 or early 2011 he started to describe a new phase which is more related to No Mind where even the sense of an 'awareness' is dissolved and what's left of luminous manifestations without a sense of agency, a result of his experimentations with 'direct mode' which may or may not be influenced by the debates on AF/PCE at that time. I think he called it the 7th or 8th or 9th stage in his model of things. At least that is how I understood it - I am not very familiar with his teachings.
His description of 1st gear doesnt seem to have anything to do with what I call "empty", because his 1st gear is dissociative by nature, while I'm talking about looking at the bare nondual apprehension of a manifestation - a thought, perception, and looking at its nature.
I do not recall talking about the difference between KF and DI style vipassana, perhaps you can remind me? You should also understand that even before what I call realization of anatta, Daniel Ingram went off into Tibetan Buddhism at 3rd path when he was having glimpses of nondual luminosity (which interestingly he disappointedly couldn't find his Theravadin teachers speaking about), then during a retreat deeply contemplated based on Bahiya Sutta and Theravada standard dharma seals and broke through to anatta. Kenneth Folk went off Mahasi into Advaita first, then Tibetan, then through direct mode and Bahiya Sutta (possibly) broke through into No Mind and Anatta (however I'm not sure if he sees 'anatta' as a dharma seal realization or merely as a state of No Mind). So both of them, in my opinion, broke off from standard Mahasi noting technique to get to their realization of anatta. Also, Daniel says that at later stage of practice, even in Mahasi tradition, they will be asked to drop the 'noting' aspect. IMO: noting is not direct enough and although helpful at beginning stages, it has to give way to a more direct mode of contemplation for the direct realization of anatta.
Does Bahiya Sutta work without I AM realization? Of course it does. Example: Daniel Ingram did not go through I Am realization.
July 10 at 2:23am · Edited · Like · 3
Soh "John mentioned that there is no Anatta without I AM"
I think you're mistaken. It is not necessary to realize I AM in order to realize anatta. But for me I find realization of I AM to be an important realization into the direct luminosity of Mind. This direct taste of luminosity may only come later for some practitioners, but it is the first step for me and the path becomes the unfolding of this taste and making it effortless and natural.
July 10 at 2:42am · Edited · Like · 1
Empty Set This is really interesting! To try to match up our terminology, I think my "anatta" matches up with your non- doership + impersonality + a varying, intermittent "sense of self" manifesting as tension/ tightness/ contraction in the head, chest, or whole body, or as a subtle emotional possessiveness of a "personal space" of about a couple of feet (1m or less) away from my body. These are as impermanent and impersonal as everything else. When the "sense of self" is gone, I'm in the "one- mind" or "no- mind" state. Your "anatta" = any sense of self, center, or Witness goes away and stays away, do I understand correctly?
July 10 at 3:52am · Unlike · 2
Òskar K. Linares Myself?: after experiencing and realizing IAM, no-doership & imperrsonality experience (in that order) as described by Soh, I think now I'm moving day after day between no-mind and one-mind experiences as described by Soh, is that possible? Brilliant scenery, with very subtle sense of me, mainly thoughts and percepctions floating but algo a strong sense that the perceived universe is becoming very, very intimate... The experience is nearly 24 hours but varying in intensity... also is very evident the rejection of my body to the contraction every time "I" appears in mind, but I dont feel like there's no Me, so NO Anatta, by now. That description isnt very acurate but its hard for me to explain in english.
July 10 at 4:03am · Edited · Like · 1
Empty Set Your "I AM" and "one- mind" are interesting to me, because I have had the experience of "being the Witness" plenty of times but never held any belief or had any sense that I was experiencing, or experiencing an aspect of, any kind of all- pervading Consciousness. It's more like, "Huh, that's interesting, I feel like I'm watching myself see/ hear/ do stuff". Sometimes it's felt unpleasantly dissociative. It happened most frequently during my late Impermanence and early Immediacy stages, but has also happened before and sometimes still happens. I'm thinking about this and it seems like my "Witness" would be your "I AM" experience. Your "one- mind" would be my "Gee, that's funny, I feel like all this stuff that's going on is me!" That's happened to me a few times, followed by an internal case of the giggles, followed by a "no- mind" or "sense of self" or "Witness" state. I've never had any belief in a "Self", so it ended up being "it feels like my personal lower-case-s self is also this chair, that bookcase, this room, that tree, the cosmos...", which felt ridiculous- cue giggles.
July 10 at 4:09am · Like
Òskar K. Linares Empty Set I also have sometimes that dissociative experience of seeing myself doing things from ¿above? but I dont think it's IAM realization, I think its just an impersonality experience, and never lasts. It doesnt feel very right for me, and I dont try to repeat it...
July 10 at 4:12am · Like
Soh "Your "anatta" = any sense of self, center, or Witness goes away and stays away, do I understand correctly?"
For me, anatta is a dharma seal and it has to be realized It is not just a matter of dissolving away of any sense of self, center or Witness - that also happens in No Mind, but rather, anatta realization is realizing that in seeing only just scenery, no seer, in action just doing, no doer, in hearing just sound, no hearer, everything is self-felt, self-seen, happening on its own without any self/Self behind it. This 'anatta' is seen to always already be the case, it is not a stage or experience where the sense of self falls away, but the nature of reality. But due to overcoming the delusion of 'self' through realizing anatta, the state of no mind becomes a natural state.
July 10 at 4:13am · Edited · Like
Soh My "I AM" is not really a state of witnessing. It is a direct non-dual apprehension of Pure Beingness/Awareness. There are also different degrees of I AM realization. However due to propensities, after that moment of realization, it appears to be a background Witness.
July 10 at 4:16am · Like · 1
Empty Set I don't think I've had, or ever will have, an I AM realization, since I don't have the belief structure for it. I've had experiences of identifying with a sense of watching or witnessing, but they don't stick. They can be pleasant or unpleasant.
July 10 at 4:16am · Like
Òskar K. Linares Same that Soh about IAM, not really a permanent witness....
July 10 at 4:18am · Like
Empty Set There seem to be multiple "anattas" here:
July 10 at 4:20am · Like
Empty Set 1) The doctrine or concept that there is no self, Self, or soul at the core of a human being's existence. Can be believed in the same way as having a belief that there is, or isn't, a God, not related one way or another to any experience or realization.
July 10 at 4:21am · Like
Empty Set 2) The felt recognition that any "sense of self" that occurs is not a self/Self, and is therefore in some sense illusory.
July 10 at 4:22am · Like
Empty Set 3) The view in 1) becomes a direct and persistent experience.
July 10 at 4:23am · Like
Empty Set My "anatta" described above is anatta 2), and that also sounds similar to Òskar's experience. Not long ago I thought the natural next "step" for me was closer examination of the "sense of self" with anatta 3) in mind. But a certain amount of grumpy, angry, self- critical conditioning is in the way. It was feeling less like deconstructing the "sense of self" and more like hostility towards myself. It feels tied up with the short temper I can have towards others too. So it feels like time for a detour onto a different axis of development for a while.
July 10 at 4:30am · Like
Empty Set Not sure how my "unity" consciousness state (distinct from "unity" realization) matches up. It's feeling "one with everything". ("I AM"? "One- mind"?) I believe it's a common experience among Westerners with nature- mystic tendencies.
July 10 at 4:40am · Like
Empty Set It can shade over into "no- mind"- "no me, just everything, or just whatever's going on with no perception of separation"
July 10 at 4:42am · Like
Lindsay Funk I find maps a lot of fun, and it's great to trade notes, but I'm also uneasy about them because they often seem to be perceived as a hierarchy of truth. I like to think what's important is the flexibility of multiple perspectives. IME, it's not like one perspective negates other, previous perspectives, but that more and more perspectives can be included, which prevents clinging to any one perspective. The insights, it seems, are infinite, but some are particularly useful in reducing suffering.
July 10 at 5:11am · Like · 2
Brian Zey Great thread Soh, Thanks!!
July 10 at 5:16am · Like
Empty Set Lindsay, I agree- this goes along with emptiness in a philosophical sense (distinct from emptiness realization) that sees any view as "empty" of inherent reality. Clinging to ideas as True with a capital T rather than as useful models to aid understanding and activity is a major source of dukkha in my opinion. I've experienced some of this with the developmental maps where they can lead to egocentric "Look at how enlightened I am! Yay me!" or negative-egocentric "Alas, everyone's so much further along than I'll ever be! Maybe sometime in my next hundred lifetimes... (sigh)" thoughts and feelings.
July 10 at 5:55am · Like
Empty Set Soh, do you consider yourself "done" in any sense? I know Daniel Ingrahm refers to himself as an "arahant" (if he still does) based on a realization level that I think matches "anatta 3)" in my scheme. I know "arahant" is a really loaded term, but he says he feels like his development along some axis is complete, and I can imagine how reaching "anatta 3)" could feel like that. I went through the Liberation Unleashed process, which brought me to "anatta 2)", and even that had a sort of "done" feeling for a while. Of course, that "done" feeling was impermanent like so much else
July 10 at 6:03am · Like
Empty Set Daniel also had what he might call "post- arahant" development along a different axis more related to the emotions when he was working with the Actual Freedom practices. But I think he still doubts that it's possible to drop the negative-emotion fetters completely.
July 10 at 6:06am · Like
Soh The realization of anatta was done in the sense that nothing could subtract it or add to it (however it can be applied to all other things, therefore from another perspective, yes the insight can deepen). There is not a single moment from the point I realized it (four years ago) that I feel I had lost the realization. That realization has that quality of unshakeable stability. Even now, anatta is naturally actualized in mundane activities like typing this message, only the action of typing, only the shapes/colours appearing vividly, there is a pristine clarity that is only manifestation without any agent or self/Self. That's all, there simply is no imputation of an extra agent or self/Self, it can't happen even if I try - just like I can't force myself to believe that santa claus is real once it is doubtlessly seen to be false and non-existent.
That said: no, I do not agree that Daniel Ingram or myself is 'done', because I hold the fetter model literally. In other words, I do not consider that his arahantship is equivalent to Buddha's version of arahantship, and I think all true Buddhists should at least strive to attain liberation from affliction, samsara, rebirth, fetters, suffering, etc in its entirety. (Especially if you believe in rebirth - otherwise who cares? lol)
July 10 at 6:14am · Edited · Like · 1
Empty Set Another source of confusion here is that people I know, or know of, will use the term "stream entry" to mean sometimes what seems like "anatta 2)", sometimes like "anatta 3)", and sometimes something else entirely.
July 10 at 6:09am · Like
Soh In my mind, stream entry is more like what I call direct realization of anatta... which results in completely putting an end to false view of self. One can have glimpses of impersonality, nondoership etc, but it does not mean one has put an end to the view that a self exists beyond or within phenomena. For example, non-doership can be experienced while believing in an eternal Self that is 'Pure Consciousness' standing apart from that aggregates. Only in the direct realization of anatta that there is no one (including 'Self') behind the aggregates (or within them) that the self-view is put to an end forever.
July 10 at 6:16am · Edited · Like
Soh It is not just a 'recognition' but a direct realization... when the imputation of Self dissolves through direct realization, one directly tastes the arising and ceasing of dharmas. Total exertion as arising and what arises conditionally ceases. That to me, is the awakening of the Dharma Eye that defines stream entry. Otherwise it is nothing direct, and what is not direct apprehension is not what I consider as 'Realization'. This is why I consider 'noting' to be insufficient. It is not about noting impermanence or not-self or labelling phenomena... one can 'recognise' something about the seals that way, but it is different from 'realization' where one's entire being is the direct touch of impermanence.
July 10 at 6:25am · Edited · Like · 1
Empty Set I've got to stop commenting on this thread and go do something more useful soon , but I think a lot of Buddhists as well as agnostic/ atheist/ secular- type people could agree to "anatta 1)" as a statement of belief without any associated shift in lived experience. I was there for a long time. I had no belief in a personal soul or transcendent Self, and saw my personal self as simply "my" body, mind, and personal history. When I started examining my belief structure a bit more, it became clear parts of it were incoherent, since I still had some belief in "free will" and that the "sense of self" was really "me"- and if it wasn't "me, the body and mind", but "-my- body and mind", what was this owner??
July 10 at 6:25am · Like
Soh That is a good point. For a long time prior to the realization of anatta in 2010 I too believe in the concept of anatta. Yet the sense of self is very strong. To this point, Thusness commented that it simply shows that the strength of karmic propensities is much stronger than the sum of all my faith. That is, it doesn't matter what your mental belief or concept or position about self and the world is. You can be a Buddhist, nihilist, eternalist, creationist, materialist, and yet your sense of self is still as strong in each case. It is the very deeply held imprint of ignorance that manifests in our moment to moment experience. It only begins to dissolve after direct insight (of various kinds)
July 10 at 6:30am · Edited · Like · 2
John Tan Hi Soh,
I think u missed the 12 nidanas of dependent origination.
Prior to anatta, Self is a true existence -- very real, very concrete and “I AM” is that full blown experience of this Self.
After anatta, it does not mean “sense of self” does not arise. Contrary, it is due to the continual arising of the sense self that gives rise to the insight of 12 nidanas of dependent origination.
In order words, with the insight of anatta, true existence of Self becomes nothing more than a sense or an impression of self – the clear recognition that self/Self is just an IMPRESSION, the entire idea of “Self” is learned; the experience of Self is a fabrication.
How does the sense and impression come about?
The impression is generated by the chain reaction of habitual tendency fueled by ignorance and because of the clear seeing of this karmic chain of reactions, one also sees what needs to be done and the clear discernment that what is meant by nothing is left undone – the purging and releasing from the karmic chain.
So seeing through the “background I” isn’t enough for anatta (imo), there must be clear discernment of this chain reaction.
July 10 at 9:41am · Unlike · 6
Soh I think grasping after realization of anatta manifests in different way. No longer is there grasping at a "background I", but it does not mean there is no grasping at other aspects like 'mine' or clinging to forms of thought patterns. I remember Newbuddhist Richard said that his grasping is not so much about a transcendental Self but the pains he felt as a father caring for his son when his son got bullied etc. As for me, although I have not faced such things yet (as I am not a father), I still think my anatta need to complement with shamatha and dispassion and letting go to overcome all thought patterns. Even if the universe is about to end... hopefully, may I experience release
July 10 at 4:06pm · Edited · Like · 1
Soh BTW I can see that the apparent true existence of 'Self' is an impression and that impression is in total exertion when the conditioning false views and ignorance are strongly acting... forming into an experiential reality like the Eternal Witness. As it has no basis apart from ignorance, that too releases via actualizing insight.
This is what I wrote on karmic propensities: (Deconstruction+Realization+Experience) Karmic Propensities: Karmic propensities are never hidden, totally exerted! Feel the realness of the amazing creation of the Subject/Object fiction manifesting as one's given experiential reality.
July 10 at 4:22pm · Edited · Like
Òskar K. Linares Oh. I think I will translate carefully this thread to spanish in my blog, so I'll be sure I wont miss any thing. I can hide de names if you want so, John Tan, Soh and Empty Set. Thank you. My actual feeling is like the one of Soh 4 years ago, I'm completely convinced of Anatta, I can even see clearly how every thought arises form nothing without volition and do the deeds, but that's not a realization, so work must be done, I hope conditions are the ones required...
July 10 at 5:02pm · Unlike · 1
Soh Cool I may still edit this thread in the coming days though..
July 10 at 5:04pm · Like
Kyle Dixon Good thread for the DC blog too
July 10 at 5:20pm · Unlike · 3
Òskar K. Linares OK, Soh, please let me know when you're over if it's possible.
July 10 at 5:37pm · Like
Soh lol Thusness just told me there are 7 to 8 points I should have clearer expression... so... maybe not so soon
July 10 at 5:38pm · Like
Òskar K. Linares Jaja
July 10 at 5:38pm · Like
Empty Set Oskar and Soh, please go ahead and include my comments in whatever way you'd like. Go ahead and call me Empty Set- it's a pseudonym, after all! I request that you include Lindsay's comment (if it's OK with her) and my reply, since for a while the maps were a hindrance for me! I have some more comments about my understanding of SWY's anatta realization/ my "anatta 3"/ Daniel I.'s 4th path or "arahant", an attainment I don't claim but may take as a goal at some point. I'll post them later today
July 11 at 12:52am · Like · 1
Òskar K. Linares Yes. I will. Thank you all for your help.
July 11 at 2:32am · Like
Empty Set One last note: I am currently a Liberation Unleashed guide, working with someone with a Yoga/ Advaita background. If the guiding is successful, it may lead him to I AM or one-mind! Fine by me It's helping "me" (hah!) deepen "anatta 2)" and may be leading towards "anatta 3)"
July 11 at 2:39am · Like
No comments:
Post a Comment