Soh
June 6 · Brisbane · Edited
Was reminded of a sutta which I read two days ago from Udana, while in a dharma discussion.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.08.than.html
Ud 8.8 PTS: Ud 91 Visakha Sutta: Visakha translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu © 2012 Alternate format: [PDF icon]
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother. And on that occasion a dear and beloved grandson of Visakha, Migara's mother, had died. So Visakha, Migara's mother — her clothes wet, her hair wet — went to the Blessed One in the middle of the day and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As she was sitting there the Blessed One said to her: "Why have you come here, Visakha — your clothes wet, your hair wet — in the middle of the day?"
When this was said, she said to the Blessed One, "My dear and beloved grandson has died. This is why I have come here — my clothes wet, my hair wet — in the middle of the day."
"Visakha, would you like to have as many children & grandchildren as there are people in Savatthi?"
"Yes, lord, I would like to have as many children & grandchildren as there are people in Savatthi."
"But how many people in Savatthi die in the course of a day?"
"Sometimes ten people die in Savatthi in the course of a day, sometimes nine... eight... seven... six... five... four... three... two... Sometimes one person dies in Savatthi in the course of a day. Savatthi is never free from people dying."
"So what do you think, Visakha? Would you ever be free of wet clothes & wet hair?"
"No, lord. Enough of my having so many children & grandchildren."
"Visakha, those who have a hundred dear ones have a hundred sufferings. Those who have ninety dear ones have ninety sufferings. Those who have eighty... seventy... sixty... fifty... forty... thirty... twenty... ten... nine... eight... seven... six... five... four... three... two... Those who have one dear one have one suffering. Those who have no dear ones have no sufferings. They are free from sorrow, free from stain, free from lamentation, I tell you."
Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: The sorrows, lamentations, the many kinds of suffering in the world, exist dependent on something dear. They don't exist when there's nothing dear. And thus blissful & sorrowless are those for whom nothing in the world is anywhere dear. So one who aspires to the stainless & sorrowless shouldn't make anything dear in the world anywhere.
........
also, dhammapada:
Piyavagga Affection
Giving himself to things to be shunned and not exerting where exertion is needed, a seeker after pleasures, having given up his true welfare, envies those intent upon theirs.
Seek no intimacy with the beloved and also not with the unloved, for not to see the beloved and to see the unloved, both are painful.
Therefore hold nothing dear, for separation from the dear is painful. There are no bonds for those who have nothing beloved or unloved.
From endearment springs grief, from endearment springs fear. For one who is wholly free from endearment there is no grief, whence then fear?
From affection springs grief, from affection springs fear. For one who is wholly free from affection there is no grief, whence then fear?
From attachment springs grief, from attachment springs fear. For one who is wholly free from attachment there is no grief, whence then fear?
From lust springs grief, from lust springs fear. For one who is wholly free from craving there is no grief; whence then fear?
From craving springs grief, from craving springs fear. For one who is wholly free from craving there is no grief; whence then fear?
People hold dear him who embodies virtue and insight, who is principled, has realized the truth, and who himself does what he ought to be doing.
One who is intent upon the Ineffable (Nibbana), dwells with mind inspired (by supramundane wisdom), and is no more bound by sense pleasures—such a man is called “One Bound Upstream.”
When, after a long absence, a man safely returns from afar, his relatives, friends and well-wishers welcome him home on arrival.
As kinsmen welcome a dear one on arrival, even so his own good deeds will welcome the doer of good who has gone from this world to the next.
Visakha Sutta: Visakha
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother. And on that occasion a dear and beloved grandson of Visakha, Migara's mother, had died. So Visakha, Migara's mother — her clothes wet, her hair wet — went to the Bless…
accesstoinsight.org
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Viorica Doina Neacsu, Laya Jakubowicz, Stuffs RedTurtle and 3 others like this.
Viorica Doina Neacsu Thank you Soh!
June 6 at 5:03pm · Like · 1
Empty Set Can you love someone without the sort of attachment that leads to dukkha? Can you enjoy life's pleasures without the taking them for granted that leads to suffering when they inevitably cease? Can you really be a Buddhist as a householder with lots of worldly concerns? Some of my koans these days...
June 7 at 12:15am · Like
Soh In the suttas, you can be a stream enterer and once returner and still enjoy sensual pleasures. Once you become an anagami you no longer have any interest in sensual pleasures, you do not desire them, and you do not partake in them (such as sex). Once you become an arahant you no longer have any desire even in the subtler mental factors of jhanas.
Can you be a Buddhist as a householder? Of course. In fact, thousands of Buddha's students attain stream entry, once returner, non returner as lay people (the Buddha clearly stated that for each of these stages, the number of laymen and laywomen attaining them were numbering in the range of '500').
Can you be a Buddhist with lots of worldly concerns? Of course. All unawakened person have worldly concerns. But we gradually learn to let them go.
June 7 at 12:23am · Like · 3
Empty Set Couple of questions: First, what's described above is the standard Theravada model. How does that line up with the "I AM"/ anatta/ emptiness series of realizations I see discussed here?
June 7 at 3:38am · Like
Empty Set Second, it doesn't seem possible that somebody with no "dear ones" could have a normal family life. Even if they were a monastic, they couldn't really have friends. Is the implication that the desire for personal relationships falls away at some advanced stage? If so, it sounds like I'm nowhere near that state, despite being an introvert
June 7 at 3:48am · Like
Òskar K. Linares It depends on how you define "dear", isnt it?. You can love someone but accept his/her death when the moment has come... It's a love without clinging. And about his/her suffering then I think compassion is ok even for one Arahat, am I right o its just before full enlightenment, in the Bodhisatva state, that compassion is ok?
June 7 at 3:57am · Unlike · 4
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland Total absence of significance reveals unconditional love.
June 7 at 8:30am · Unlike · 3
Soh "Can you love someone without the sort of attachment that leads to dukkha?"
That would be loving kindness and compassion. You can have loving kindness and compassion without attachment, such as the Buddha.
Attachment is possessiveness. It is the sense of ownership, sense of 'mine-ness', and as such, if 'your son', 'your daughter', 'your spouse' were to leave you, die, etc, there is suffering and sorrow, because there is self-cherishing and grasping involved. The Buddhadharma teaches us to relinquish all I and Mine making, and that all arahants have by definition in the suttas overcome I and Mine making.
For example, in the Upaddha Sutta, Sariputta was asked whether he would feel sorrow when Buddha passes away. He answered in the negative, Venerable Ananda commented that it was the overcoming of all I and Mine making in Sariputta that no sorrow arises:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn21/sn21.002.than.html
SN 21.2
PTS: S ii 274
CDB i 714
Upatissa Sutta: About Upatissa (Sariputta)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1999
At Savatthi. There Ven. Sariputta addressed the monks: "Friends!"
"Yes, friend," the monks responded.
Ven. Sariputta said, "Friends, just now as I was withdrawn in seclusion, this train of thought arose to my awareness: 'Is there anything in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'There is nothing in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair.'"
When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher would there arise within you no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair?"
"Even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, my friend, there would arise within me no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Still, I would have this thought: 'What a great being, of great might, of great prowess, has disappeared! For if the Blessed One were to remain for a long time, that would be for the benefit of many people, for the happiness of many people, out of sympathy for the world; for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of human & divine beings.'"
"Surely," [said Ven. Ananda,] "it's because Ven. Sariputta's I-making & mine-making and obsessions with conceit have long been well uprooted that even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, there would arise within him no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair."
Upatissa Sutta: About Upatissa (Sariputta)
www.accesstoinsight.org
Ven. Sariputta said, "Friends, just now as I was withdrawn in seclusion, this tr... See More
June 7 at 10:50am · Edited · Like · 4 · Remove Preview
Soh "Couple of questions: First, what's described above is the standard Theravada model. How does that line up with the "I AM"/ anatta/ emptiness series of realizations I see discussed here?"
To me that anatta realization fits in with the stream entry of Theravada.
"Second, it doesn't seem possible that somebody with no "dear ones" could have a normal family life."
The point is that you must completely relinquish all sense of possessiveness. Zero grasping. It doesn't matter who you live with, the point is that you do not make a person 'dear' (i.e. grow sense of possessiveness, grasping, etc). Of course, this is difficult, and we are all practicing to let go of attachments. Becoming a monastic would be easier.
"Even if they were a monastic, they couldn't really have friends."
The Buddha said that admirable friendship is the whole of the holy life (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/.../sn45/sn45.002.than.html) - but this is quite different from growing a kind of clinging-affection or possessiveness to others. So, of course monastics have friends. It is of course, difficult even for monks to overcome this kind of clinging-affection to their peers in the monastic community.
For example, when the Buddha was about to pass away, many of his monks cried. Ananda (a sotapanna at that time) was also crying. However those who were free from passion (arahants) had no sorrow even at the passing of Buddha.
The Mahaparinibbana sutta remarked,
"When the Blessed One was totally Unbound, simultaneously with the total Unbinding, some of the monks present who were not without passion wept, uplifting their arms. As if their feet were cut out from under them, they fell down and rolled back & forth, crying, "All too soon is the Blessed One totally unbound! All too soon is the One Well-gone totally unbound! All too soon, the One with Eyes has disappeared from the world!" But those monks who were free from passion acquiesced, mindful & alert: "Fabrications are inconstant. What else is there to expect?"" - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tip.../dn/dn.16.5-6.than.html
Upaddha Sutta: Half (of the Holy Life)
www.accesstoinsight.org
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Sakyans. ... See More
June 7 at 10:56am · Edited · Like · 4 · Remove Preview
Soh Realizing anatta does not mean that at once you will overcome all sense of grasping and mine-making. Something Thusness wrote years ago concerning the difference between I-making and mine-making:
Hi Simpo,
How have you been getting on? I am planning for my retirement.
I think after stabilizing non-dual experience and maturing the insight of anatta, practice must turn towards ‘self-releasing’ and ‘dispassion’ rather than intensifying ‘non-dual’ luminosity. Although being bare in attention or naked in awareness will help in dissolving the sense of ‘I’ and division, we must also look into dissolving the sense of ‘mine’. In my opinion, dissolving of the sense of ‘I’ does not equate to dissolving the sense of ‘mine’ and attachment to possessions can still be strong even after very stable non-dual experience. This is because the former realization only mange to eliminate the dualistic tendency while the latter requires us to embody and actualize the right view of ‘emptiness’. Very seldom do we realize it has a lot to do with our ‘view’ that we hold in our deep most consciousness. We must allow our luminous essence to meet differing conditions to realise the latent deep. All our body cells are imprinted and hardwired to ‘hold’. Not to under-estimate it.
June 7 at 11:14am · Edited · Like · 7
Yor Sunyata Property, ownership, mine. Just stories we make up, tell each other and believe. Nothing more than an empty social construction.
June 8 at 10:39am · Like
June 6 · Brisbane · Edited
Was reminded of a sutta which I read two days ago from Udana, while in a dharma discussion.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.08.than.html
Ud 8.8 PTS: Ud 91 Visakha Sutta: Visakha translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu © 2012 Alternate format: [PDF icon]
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother. And on that occasion a dear and beloved grandson of Visakha, Migara's mother, had died. So Visakha, Migara's mother — her clothes wet, her hair wet — went to the Blessed One in the middle of the day and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As she was sitting there the Blessed One said to her: "Why have you come here, Visakha — your clothes wet, your hair wet — in the middle of the day?"
When this was said, she said to the Blessed One, "My dear and beloved grandson has died. This is why I have come here — my clothes wet, my hair wet — in the middle of the day."
"Visakha, would you like to have as many children & grandchildren as there are people in Savatthi?"
"Yes, lord, I would like to have as many children & grandchildren as there are people in Savatthi."
"But how many people in Savatthi die in the course of a day?"
"Sometimes ten people die in Savatthi in the course of a day, sometimes nine... eight... seven... six... five... four... three... two... Sometimes one person dies in Savatthi in the course of a day. Savatthi is never free from people dying."
"So what do you think, Visakha? Would you ever be free of wet clothes & wet hair?"
"No, lord. Enough of my having so many children & grandchildren."
"Visakha, those who have a hundred dear ones have a hundred sufferings. Those who have ninety dear ones have ninety sufferings. Those who have eighty... seventy... sixty... fifty... forty... thirty... twenty... ten... nine... eight... seven... six... five... four... three... two... Those who have one dear one have one suffering. Those who have no dear ones have no sufferings. They are free from sorrow, free from stain, free from lamentation, I tell you."
Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: The sorrows, lamentations, the many kinds of suffering in the world, exist dependent on something dear. They don't exist when there's nothing dear. And thus blissful & sorrowless are those for whom nothing in the world is anywhere dear. So one who aspires to the stainless & sorrowless shouldn't make anything dear in the world anywhere.
........
also, dhammapada:
Piyavagga Affection
Giving himself to things to be shunned and not exerting where exertion is needed, a seeker after pleasures, having given up his true welfare, envies those intent upon theirs.
Seek no intimacy with the beloved and also not with the unloved, for not to see the beloved and to see the unloved, both are painful.
Therefore hold nothing dear, for separation from the dear is painful. There are no bonds for those who have nothing beloved or unloved.
From endearment springs grief, from endearment springs fear. For one who is wholly free from endearment there is no grief, whence then fear?
From affection springs grief, from affection springs fear. For one who is wholly free from affection there is no grief, whence then fear?
From attachment springs grief, from attachment springs fear. For one who is wholly free from attachment there is no grief, whence then fear?
From lust springs grief, from lust springs fear. For one who is wholly free from craving there is no grief; whence then fear?
From craving springs grief, from craving springs fear. For one who is wholly free from craving there is no grief; whence then fear?
People hold dear him who embodies virtue and insight, who is principled, has realized the truth, and who himself does what he ought to be doing.
One who is intent upon the Ineffable (Nibbana), dwells with mind inspired (by supramundane wisdom), and is no more bound by sense pleasures—such a man is called “One Bound Upstream.”
When, after a long absence, a man safely returns from afar, his relatives, friends and well-wishers welcome him home on arrival.
As kinsmen welcome a dear one on arrival, even so his own good deeds will welcome the doer of good who has gone from this world to the next.
Visakha Sutta: Visakha
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother. And on that occasion a dear and beloved grandson of Visakha, Migara's mother, had died. So Visakha, Migara's mother — her clothes wet, her hair wet — went to the Bless…
accesstoinsight.org
LikeLike · · Share
Viorica Doina Neacsu, Laya Jakubowicz, Stuffs RedTurtle and 3 others like this.
Viorica Doina Neacsu Thank you Soh!
June 6 at 5:03pm · Like · 1
Empty Set Can you love someone without the sort of attachment that leads to dukkha? Can you enjoy life's pleasures without the taking them for granted that leads to suffering when they inevitably cease? Can you really be a Buddhist as a householder with lots of worldly concerns? Some of my koans these days...
June 7 at 12:15am · Like
Soh In the suttas, you can be a stream enterer and once returner and still enjoy sensual pleasures. Once you become an anagami you no longer have any interest in sensual pleasures, you do not desire them, and you do not partake in them (such as sex). Once you become an arahant you no longer have any desire even in the subtler mental factors of jhanas.
Can you be a Buddhist as a householder? Of course. In fact, thousands of Buddha's students attain stream entry, once returner, non returner as lay people (the Buddha clearly stated that for each of these stages, the number of laymen and laywomen attaining them were numbering in the range of '500').
Can you be a Buddhist with lots of worldly concerns? Of course. All unawakened person have worldly concerns. But we gradually learn to let them go.
June 7 at 12:23am · Like · 3
Empty Set Couple of questions: First, what's described above is the standard Theravada model. How does that line up with the "I AM"/ anatta/ emptiness series of realizations I see discussed here?
June 7 at 3:38am · Like
Empty Set Second, it doesn't seem possible that somebody with no "dear ones" could have a normal family life. Even if they were a monastic, they couldn't really have friends. Is the implication that the desire for personal relationships falls away at some advanced stage? If so, it sounds like I'm nowhere near that state, despite being an introvert
June 7 at 3:48am · Like
Òskar K. Linares It depends on how you define "dear", isnt it?. You can love someone but accept his/her death when the moment has come... It's a love without clinging. And about his/her suffering then I think compassion is ok even for one Arahat, am I right o its just before full enlightenment, in the Bodhisatva state, that compassion is ok?
June 7 at 3:57am · Unlike · 4
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland Total absence of significance reveals unconditional love.
June 7 at 8:30am · Unlike · 3
Soh "Can you love someone without the sort of attachment that leads to dukkha?"
That would be loving kindness and compassion. You can have loving kindness and compassion without attachment, such as the Buddha.
Attachment is possessiveness. It is the sense of ownership, sense of 'mine-ness', and as such, if 'your son', 'your daughter', 'your spouse' were to leave you, die, etc, there is suffering and sorrow, because there is self-cherishing and grasping involved. The Buddhadharma teaches us to relinquish all I and Mine making, and that all arahants have by definition in the suttas overcome I and Mine making.
For example, in the Upaddha Sutta, Sariputta was asked whether he would feel sorrow when Buddha passes away. He answered in the negative, Venerable Ananda commented that it was the overcoming of all I and Mine making in Sariputta that no sorrow arises:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn21/sn21.002.than.html
SN 21.2
PTS: S ii 274
CDB i 714
Upatissa Sutta: About Upatissa (Sariputta)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1999
At Savatthi. There Ven. Sariputta addressed the monks: "Friends!"
"Yes, friend," the monks responded.
Ven. Sariputta said, "Friends, just now as I was withdrawn in seclusion, this train of thought arose to my awareness: 'Is there anything in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'There is nothing in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair.'"
When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher would there arise within you no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair?"
"Even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, my friend, there would arise within me no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Still, I would have this thought: 'What a great being, of great might, of great prowess, has disappeared! For if the Blessed One were to remain for a long time, that would be for the benefit of many people, for the happiness of many people, out of sympathy for the world; for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of human & divine beings.'"
"Surely," [said Ven. Ananda,] "it's because Ven. Sariputta's I-making & mine-making and obsessions with conceit have long been well uprooted that even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, there would arise within him no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair."
Upatissa Sutta: About Upatissa (Sariputta)
www.accesstoinsight.org
Ven. Sariputta said, "Friends, just now as I was withdrawn in seclusion, this tr... See More
June 7 at 10:50am · Edited · Like · 4 · Remove Preview
Soh "Couple of questions: First, what's described above is the standard Theravada model. How does that line up with the "I AM"/ anatta/ emptiness series of realizations I see discussed here?"
To me that anatta realization fits in with the stream entry of Theravada.
"Second, it doesn't seem possible that somebody with no "dear ones" could have a normal family life."
The point is that you must completely relinquish all sense of possessiveness. Zero grasping. It doesn't matter who you live with, the point is that you do not make a person 'dear' (i.e. grow sense of possessiveness, grasping, etc). Of course, this is difficult, and we are all practicing to let go of attachments. Becoming a monastic would be easier.
"Even if they were a monastic, they couldn't really have friends."
The Buddha said that admirable friendship is the whole of the holy life (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/.../sn45/sn45.002.than.html) - but this is quite different from growing a kind of clinging-affection or possessiveness to others. So, of course monastics have friends. It is of course, difficult even for monks to overcome this kind of clinging-affection to their peers in the monastic community.
For example, when the Buddha was about to pass away, many of his monks cried. Ananda (a sotapanna at that time) was also crying. However those who were free from passion (arahants) had no sorrow even at the passing of Buddha.
The Mahaparinibbana sutta remarked,
"When the Blessed One was totally Unbound, simultaneously with the total Unbinding, some of the monks present who were not without passion wept, uplifting their arms. As if their feet were cut out from under them, they fell down and rolled back & forth, crying, "All too soon is the Blessed One totally unbound! All too soon is the One Well-gone totally unbound! All too soon, the One with Eyes has disappeared from the world!" But those monks who were free from passion acquiesced, mindful & alert: "Fabrications are inconstant. What else is there to expect?"" - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tip.../dn/dn.16.5-6.than.html
Upaddha Sutta: Half (of the Holy Life)
www.accesstoinsight.org
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Sakyans. ... See More
June 7 at 10:56am · Edited · Like · 4 · Remove Preview
Soh Realizing anatta does not mean that at once you will overcome all sense of grasping and mine-making. Something Thusness wrote years ago concerning the difference between I-making and mine-making:
Hi Simpo,
How have you been getting on? I am planning for my retirement.
I think after stabilizing non-dual experience and maturing the insight of anatta, practice must turn towards ‘self-releasing’ and ‘dispassion’ rather than intensifying ‘non-dual’ luminosity. Although being bare in attention or naked in awareness will help in dissolving the sense of ‘I’ and division, we must also look into dissolving the sense of ‘mine’. In my opinion, dissolving of the sense of ‘I’ does not equate to dissolving the sense of ‘mine’ and attachment to possessions can still be strong even after very stable non-dual experience. This is because the former realization only mange to eliminate the dualistic tendency while the latter requires us to embody and actualize the right view of ‘emptiness’. Very seldom do we realize it has a lot to do with our ‘view’ that we hold in our deep most consciousness. We must allow our luminous essence to meet differing conditions to realise the latent deep. All our body cells are imprinted and hardwired to ‘hold’. Not to under-estimate it.
June 7 at 11:14am · Edited · Like · 7
Yor Sunyata Property, ownership, mine. Just stories we make up, tell each other and believe. Nothing more than an empty social construction.
June 8 at 10:39am · Like
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